Suggestions wanted on carving design

[Ky-Flinter]

I'm doing a make-over on a CVA Kentucky.  Darn thing has too much wood in the forestock and not enough in the butt.  I added a cheekpiece (thanks for the wood, bgf!).

Anyway....  I would appreciate suggestions for improving the carving design before I start carving away.  Thanks.



-Ron

[greybeard]

The design looks pretty good to my untrained eye. A chalenging bit of carving to be sure.
Slow and steady O K !!

[Bioprof]

If you can carve as well as you can draw, you'll be a lot better than me. 

[Acer Saccharum]

I guess if it were mine, I would opt for something really simple. Fine carving on a production gun may look out of place.

Your design is very beautiful, wonderful flow and composition. Kudos on that.

Tom

[Don Getz]

As Acer said, a bit fancy for a CVA.  Aside from that, you have shown some good artistic ability, that's half the game.   It
looks somewhat "Dickertish"..........if you merely want the practice, do it............Don

[Jim Kibler]

The scroll end that drops down from the main c-scroll appears to be a bit mishapen.  Treat this as a scroll of it's own when designing it.  A c-scroll within the main c-scroll.  The leaf at the crotch of the two main scrolls is a bit different.  It may be ok, but you might think about some other options there.  Overall good job!

[Swampwalker]

The style of the stock - Roman nose, etc, - suggests late Susquehanna would be a more appropriate carving style.  These were usually incised carved, with repeating elements.  I think there are a few examples in the library.  Also, I would recommend lowering the height of the applied cheekpiece, which would make the transistions at front and back a little more gradual.  Consider adding a star or crescent moon to the cheek - this would draw attention from the glue line, and is appropriate to the school (Susquehanna).  Good luck, and have fun!

[bjmac]

KyFlinter; I purchased an incomplete CVA kit at a flea market and am in the process of building it for my wife. While I don't have any concrete suggestions on the carving design, I would lean toward a simple design, perhaps incised carving on the butt stock area, and a simple relief carving at the tang. BTW, how did you go about adding that cheek piece? That's something that has really bothered me since I started on this build.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Your drawing is very good, and will be a challenge in that beech wood stock.  Chisels must be super sharp and cuts precise and small.

One improvement, at least to my eye, would be to round the butt plate until you have a nice thin edge that tapers to almost nothing at the toe.  That will go a long way to taking the clunkiness out of the casting.

[bgf]

My carving is limited to molding lines, so I'll just say it looks pretty to me:).  I'm really curious about the curve on the comb -- looks like you have an interesting plan.

[Stophel]

Only thing I'll say is be careful carving that beech.  Very chippy wood.

[Dphariss]

The drawing is wonderful.
The wood will be the problem. It take a good piece of wood to hold some of the things you have drawn and I doubt the stock will hold it.

I would think that incised might be a better choice with this stock.

Dan

[Jim Kibler]

I hear people talking about wood ocasionally and questioning whether it can be carved.  With care, just about ANY stock wood can be carved.  Granted extra care is often needed, but it can be carved.   Proper techniques and adapting to the wood is the key.  

Ok, I'm going to run my mouth a little more.  The design has some good aspects, but it could be improved.  It's not what I would consider wonderful or great as some have suggested.  I would suggest those who take this sort of thing somewhat seriously to try to train your eye.  You are unlikely to make something better unless you know what better is.  Perhaps some are just being nice, but that doesn't help someone who has asked for suggestions.  Sometimes I think the tendency is to evaluate guns like grades are often given out today.  Ron, sorry if I put you in the middle of my little rant!  I really do mean well.

[J. Talbert]

Ron,

I'm impressed with your drawing, but I agree with Jim about the two spots that you could possibly change a little.
I'm also wondering about two other spots that may be problematic.  Near the upper most scroll, the wood almost looks dished out just beneath the heel of the buttplate.  Is there enough wood there to lower the backround?  Perhaps it's an optical illusion, but if not, it may dictate incised rather raised carving.
The other spot would be just behind the cheek piece.  It appears a bit of an abrupt transition from the carving to the cheek piece.  Maybe if you lower the cheek piece a little or just taper the slope a little more.

Overall, I really like the design.

Jeff

[Ky-Flinter]

Thanks to all of you for your input.  Suggestions for improvement is what I asked for and it is appreciated.  I want to keep learning and improving.

I hear you guys on keeping it simple, but it may be too late for that.  BTW, this stuff will carve, just keep the tools sharp.  Here's the barrel tang area.



Jim, I always appreciate your tutelage but I'm not following on the scroll end.  Which one, lower left or lower right?.  Can you describe the misshape? Too round or too compressed, elbow or ?  I hear you on the leaf.  I added it right before posting the picture and I don't think I'm happy with it.  May have been in too much of a hurry.  Oh, and I agree with your second post comments, compliments are nice but a student needs constructive criticism in order to learn and improve.

Swampwalker, I will take a look at the Susquehanna's in the library.  And thanks for the star inlay suggestion.  I was actually already considering adding one that would cover a good bit of the upper glue line.

Jeff, the "dished out" area is an optical illusion.  It's actually flat.  Lowering the background will be a challenge, CVA didn't leave much wood to work with, but I think I can do it.  The spot between the cheekpiece and the carving is kinda bugging me too.  After I drew it, I went back to RCA and nearly all the cheekpiece scrolls connect to the cheekpiece and flow out of it.  I may have to rework this some.

As I said, suggestions and critique are invited and appreciated...  keep them coming.  Here's an overhead view and a wider view of the butt stock.





-Ron

[smylee grouch]

Dont stop now, you have the best looking CVA out there so far and you will make it even better when you finnish the other carving.  Nice job.   Gary

[J. Talbert]

Ron,

I think what Jim is referring to, or at least what I'm seeing is the little scroll emerging from the center of the big main C-scroll.  If you start at the lower left, and draw only as far as that small scroll end, (imagine it without the rest of the carving), what you should have is a smaller complete c-scroll.  In the bigger picture some smaller elements of a design may be obscured by the bigger elements, but to test the design, try to imagine the smaller element "uncovered", as if the bigger part was lifted away.  It should be able to stand alone, as Jim said.

Does this make any sense??   

I hope so...
Jeff

[Jim Kibler]

Thanks Jeff!  You explained it better than I could have hoped to.

[Ky-Flinter]

Oh, that!  Now I understand... the little fern tendril, or whatever it is.  I was looking at the curls at each end of the big C.... duh!  Thanks.

-Ron

[greybeard]

I can see what they mean about the small scroll in the middle of the large scroll . Kinda looks like it's just barely hanging on. Try reversing the view by studying your drawing as a reflection in a mirror. It just might look entirley different in that view.  Just a thought !!  Bob

[Jim Kibler]

A couple more suggestions...  The left end of the upper scroll appears to be a bit kinked.  It seems to turn upward a little too drastically and has a bit of an elbow.  Also you might want to consider treating the the lower left volute like you did the upper right.  The lines that make a dramatic stop could be wraped around like you did up top.  Another option in this area would be to stagger the ending of these lines.  have the line nearest the volute continue the furthest and the line furthest away be the shortest.  Hope this makes sense.

[bama]

Ron you are doing a great job on the rifle and it will be the best looking CVA out there. The only thing I hate is that you are putting great work into a not so great rifle. I hope that you don't take that wrong. I started out build CVA kits to, I just think that your work is good enough for you to invest your time into quality parts.

I tend to agree with Jim about the design. The leaf looks out of place with the rest of the design to me but hey it's your design. I would have a problem with the little hook shape coming off to the lower right, if I am not real careful I would break the point of the hook before I finished the carving. Then again I am to heavy handed sometimes when I carve.

It will be a much better rifle when you are finished no doubt.

[Ky-Flinter]

Again, thanks to all who provided suggestions, constructive criticisms and...  heck, I like the compliments too!  As I mentioned before, I wasn't entirely sold on the design, hence my request for help.  I've decided to rework the grafted cheekpiece some, then rework the design....  but it may be a while since the workshop isn't heated and it's freaking cold!

Bama, I hear ya, but a number of factors figure into this project.  First off, I got the piece for next to nothing in a lot deal.  Since I'm still unemployed, I'm having to watch my funds pretty close.  I'm getting to practice a bunch of fun stuff without the danger of screwing up something nice.  And finally, when it's finished I'm going to give it to my nephew.  Then I'll start on the Chamber's kit I bought before I got laid off.

-Ron

[Jerry V Lape]

Not anything additional about your carving pattern as I think Jim has given great advice there.  Have to see if I can get him to critique my carving pattern for the next gun. 

However, I think you might take a real critical look at the butt plate inletting.  Can't really tell from the photos but it appears to need a little tightening up.  It might also look better with a little reshaping of the return to put some definition  there. 

[Ky-Flinter]

Thanks Jerry.  Overall the inletting as received was not great and I have reworked it where I could.  The breech was basically unsupported and the lock wasn't supported very well.... fixed that with Acraglas.

In the buttplate picture, what seem to be terrible gaps are actually the original dark stained wood that was left when I leveled up the wood to plate surface.  There are a couple of low spots that I'll just have to live with since CVA hogged off so much wood and left rounded off edges in the rear half of the stock.  No such trouble in the front where CVA left way too much wood.

I'm going to work on the buttplate some more too, especially the edges, as Taylor suggested.  But I have to be careful, it's a casting and is actually getting thin in a couple of spots.  Can this stuff be annealed and hammered to move it a little?

-Ron