Long range Round Ball

[imray]

Hi, I have only been shooting traditional muzzleloaders for around 21 years or so. So I don't have all the savy some have from extended learning with expert old timers in clubs and such. However I do have several old timer friends that I have slowly gleaned bits of gold nugget information over the decade that have been invaluable to me. All of the Old timers I know hold secrets and hard learned information close to their chest and only rarely allow any out except to close friends under visits of palaver of life stories.
  So I was hoping to glean some information here from you fellas. I and my grown boys, (Men) youngest is, 31, oldest 38 I believe?, with 2 more in between, We are setting up a long range target site here at the house. I have the steel from an old water tower from town that was razed, and hundreds of feet of heavy industrial mine conveyor belting. I was thinking of using the 3/8s thick tower steel as a backing the belting fixed in front of that 3 feet so the balls will not ricochet back anywhere. Then we could reclaim some of the lead shot too.
  I need something to cover the belting about 10 ft. X 10 ft. I think? that will allow the off target shots to be seen, and was thinking about rolls of blank newspaper, yet that seems like the wind could take it easily. I was hoping to find something that could be ripped down and replaced easily yet allow to see the stray shots with a spotting scope and not be expensive, yet stay in place, any ideas, best wishes, ray

[heinz]

Ray, you could try painting the belt with white latex.  The strays should show up as black spots that you could repaint when necessary.  Mine conveyor belt is almost as useful as duck tape :-)

[roundball]

"...I need something to cover the belting about 10 ft. X 10 ft. I think? that will allow the off target shots to be seen, and was thinking about rolls of blank newspaper, yet that seems like the wind could take it easily..."

I don't think a roll of "contractor paper" at places like Home Depot is all that expensive and I think stronger than newspaper stock...same thing with white freezer wrapping paper

[Daryl]

Why not simply put a target stand in front of the belting. The holes in the targets can easily be seen with a spotting scope.

I take it, the conveyor is going to be hung in front of the steel as a deflector for rebounding lead - then the targets can be stapled to a wooden rack in front of the belting.  That would be the easiest - 2x2 or 2x4 construction.

[imray]

We have talked of paint, florescent orange, white? etc. or a tough thin paper that can be disposed of after each shoot, just something easy to maintain and see the off shots, I believe with the long range shooting we will need as large of palate as possible like the 10 ft. x 10 ft backing, because at  400yds., 600yds, and 800 yds. there will be a few shots fired with calculated ball size x powder load x distance = close to target yet perhaps not a bullseye, although that is the goal. If we could hit the bullseye 1st time every time, I wouldn't be doing this, I was an expert marksman  at one time in my life, now I have trouble reading the magazines, so what was once easy, is a challenge now, yet I still love shooting, and long range does it for me. I just don't think we are good enough to put up a 2 x 2 plywood and start hitting it at long range without some walk in, like hitting the 10x10 sheets somewhere and seeing where the ball went even tho it might be 4 ft off center and 4 ft. off sides, then we know what we are doing anyway, I want to hit something i can see, maybe i should use the side of the barn, HA HA, best wishes, ray
   

[trentOH]

TYVEK.  Problem solved.

It's the wrap on new houses that does a good job of weatherproofing.
For your purposes it is lightweight, flexible, large, strong, and durable. And you should be able to patch bullet holes with some sort of white tape, or tape then painted white. It has an all white side, and the reverse has marks on it for the carpenters, maybe every 16 inches, which may be beneficial too.

[J.D.]

Build a target frame, as Daryl described, and nail up a coupla pieces of celotex  to staple targets to. Newspaper, butcher paper, or something similar can be stapled to the celotex for spotting misses.

IMHO, the belting might stop the rounds at that range, if it's heavy enough, especially if it is hung so's the bottom swings free.

God bless

[Dphariss]

You will have a hard time I think getting to 800 with most RBs they will be coming in so steep that hitting anything will be tough.
500 is doable with a 54 according to a friend who was shooting at a 30 or 36" round target at this distance. Backed off to 1000 and could not get there or the bullet strikes could not be seen by spotters.

With that said please keep us posted with your findings. I am very interested.
You need one of those near 1" bore wall rifles
Dan

[smylee grouch]

As you probably know if you start at 100, then 200, then 300 etc. you would have a better chance finding holes when you get to the last range, but you would have the added inconvience of having to move your target backer after each range move. I agree with Dan inthat your results would be interesting reading.   Gary

[Don Getz]

How many of you have ever shot a soft round ball at a steel plate?    I don't think you will have to worry about rebounds,
when we used to shoot silhouettes, all we could find in the way of balls that were shot was a thin round wafer......Don

[RonT]

Concur with the rebounds being not an issue.  One look at the cratering caused by a soft lead ball on a steel plate should illustrate that not much is left to rebound.
A pontificatior elsewhere touts "preeeeecisely" 11* angled back plates...BS.  The only value there is localizing the "fines" to be sifted up and recast. 
R

[Longknife]

Pure lead round balls do not rebound, they will flatten and fall to the ground when striking steel. I used to shoot at a cast iron man hole cover  hanging from a chain. The balls would just flatten and drop to the ground where they could be recovered. If the ball was driven at high enough velocity it would just disinegrate. Even wheel weight balls would not rebound but they would not flatten as much as plrb's....Lay the belting on the groung so you can recover the spent balls. Then go to a furniture store and ask them for the cardboard boxes that matresses come in. One box split open will be twice the size of a matress. stand it up to show your misses, and its FREE!!!!...Ed

[imray]

WOW, some nice ideas guys, thanks, We plan on shooting some other firearms at this target occasionally, The target will remain in place and the shooter station will move in and out, in the SUV. We shoot handguns every now and then. we shoot other high power rifles at times also, hence the conveyor belt for ricochets, if it works, can't hurt? We are just enjoying shooting and practicing for the bullseye. We also shoot BP revolvers, Traditional muzzleloaders, with a love of just shooting, and solving problems. We don't shoot the Sabots, no challenge. Occasionally the Claude Etienne Minié Ball, especially with the BP revolvers. using the 1847 Walker and up to 65 grain BP,. I read where Walker said of the walker revolver that anyone could hit a man at 600 yds, with the  Hand gun, and if he missed the man he could at least hit the horse. So we will be testing this thought also. best wishes, ray

[Daryl]

Some of us also shoot WW or unknown alloys - one must be aware of rebounds when shooting steel.  
Good luck on a horse/ & sized target at 600 yards with a round ball or period correct conical from a hangun OR normal round ball rifle.  That's one I'd have to witness, I'm afraid.

[Don Getz]

Daryl........beat me to it.   I don't think that BP revolver will shoot 600 yards, much less hit anything.    You'll have trouble
doing it with a rifle shooting a roundball.............Don

[imray]

When I read that quote from Sam Walker I kinda had the same thought, HA HA, but were gonna give it a try just to say we did it. Were shooting for fun not to prove anything or say were the best, we already know we aint the best. we hit a 12x 24 inch target at 200 yds with a #3 dragoon so I know it a long shot, HA HA, in reality I don't expect to hit the 10x10 backboard with the walker, at 600yds. but the quote stuck in my mind soooooooo??? got the gun, got the target, got the time, might as well play a little, if we actually start hitting with any consistency I'll post a video, but don't expect it, I don't,  best wishes, ray

[Dphariss]

When I read that quote from Sam Walker I kinda had the same thought, HA HA, but were gonna give it a try just to say we did it. Were shooting for fun not to prove anything or say were the best, we already know we aint the best. we hit a 12x 24 inch target at 200 yds with a #3 dragoon so I know it a long shot, HA HA, in reality I don't expect to hit the 10x10 backboard with the walker, at 600yds. but the quote stuck in my mind soooooooo??? got the gun, got the target, got the time, might as well play a little, if we actually start hitting with any consistency I'll post a video, but don't expect it, I don't,  best wishes, ray

If the load is a good accurate one the CONICAL in a percussion revolver, especially a Dragoon or a Walker will certainly shoot that far and if the revolver/load is accurate it should hit a 30-36" circle with some reasonable reliability. But serious load development at 25-50 yards is a must. Also the velocity must be very consistent and may require weighing charges and the bullets will need to be within .5 gr, 1 gr max, of nominal.

But I think Walker was a little optimistic. Hold over will be in the range of 20-30 ft perhaps even more. So unless there is a good aiming point above the target getting hits will be much tougher.
I never tried a C&B at this distance but have shot at a 30"+ gong at 550 with a 44-40 Colt SA and 55 gal drum at 400 with a 5" 44 mag. With a good rest I could get 4-5 hits from a cylinder full once the aiming point was found.

Dan

[Dan]

Mostly covered already, but having a little photographic evidence related to rebound/back splash, might as well put it up for the record. 

Round balls at long range...there's limits even Mr. Crockett cannot overcome:

Input Data
Ballistic Coefficient:    0.070 G1    Bullet Weight:    190.0 gr
Muzzle Velocity:   1600.0 ft/s      
Temperature:   59.0 °F   Pressure:   29.92 in Hg
Humidity:   0.0 %   Altitude:   0.0 ft
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude:   No   Pressure is Corrected:   Yes
Output Data
Atmospheric Density:   0.07647 lb/ft³   Speed of Sound:   1116.4 ft/s
Initial Angle:   30.0 deg   Terminal Angle:   70.5 deg
Terminal Range:   1136.7 yd   Terminal Velocity:   188.1 ft/s
Terminal Time:   15.1 s   Terminal Energy:   14.9 ft•lbs

[Daryl]

Most IPSC shooters have been hit or observed others hit by rebounding bullet particles after the bullet's contact with steel targets.  We've seen it happen at Helfey as well - and sometimes a healthy chunk of lead comes back, either straight back of on an angle. Much depends on the condition of the impacting surface, it's pocks and dimples effecting the results.

Had a friend, also a BP shooter take a poke at a curved sheet of steel with his #1 .375mag. at about 25 yards. The steel was 1/2" thick and  was some sort of armor plate.  Some of the 300gr. Sierra (Pure lead core) came straight back and hit him on the belt buckle - made him sick to his stomach, his knees collapsed then he vomited.  He's at least 240lbs., 6'4" and not a wimp.  The hit on his heavy metal buckle was very hard, a real hard WHACK! but didn't penetrate it. Good thing it didn't hit higher or lower.

Be mindful of ricochets.

[imray]

Ricochets is the reason I/m installing the heavy conveyor belting about 3 ft. in front of the steel. to allow the bullets to go through the belting  then hit then steel and trap it between the conveyor belt and steel. I hope nothing can escape. Safety is everything here, and reusing the lead is secondary. There will be a row of logs attached directly to the front of the steel. I'm pretty sure ricochets will be eliminated. If a problem is observed, then a correction will have to be found as we cross that bridge. best wishes, ray 

[Roger Fisher]

Most IPSC shooters have been hit or observed others hit by rebounding bullet particles after the bullet's contact with steel targets.  We've seen it happen at Helfey as well - and sometimes a healthy chunk of lead comes back, either straight back of on an angle. Much depends on the condition of the impacting surface, it's pocks and dimples effecting the results.

Had a friend, also a BP shooter take a poke at a curved sheet of steel with his #1 .375mag. at about 25 yards. The steel was 1/2" thick and  was some sort of armor plate.  Some of the 300gr. Sierra (Pure lead core) came straight back and hit him on the belt buckle - made him sick to his stomach, his knees collapsed then he vomited.  He's at least 240lbs., 6'4" and not a wimp.  The hit on his heavy metal buckle was very hard, a real hard WHACK! but didn't penetrate it. Good thing it didn't hit higher or lower.

Be mindful of ricochets.

Any you folks still doubt that lead comes back from steel targets???  Read the above again.  I refer to steel targets shot close 25/30 etc yds.  I witnessed several such rebounds.  We use the lightweight targets close in and use soft ground under the smallish silohuettes shot close.  Beware Murphy's law

[Daryl]

Further to the above - the stiffer the target,the more chance of a rebounding chunk of lead.  The angle deal comes in with a long line of shooters - as noted out 'trail's at Hefley will have people spread over 200 yards of firing line. Most of the targets are quite soft steel and by the end of the 'trail' after 140 people have shot at them, some are in very poor shape.

The ones most commonly associated with rebounding chunks of lead, are the dead soft steel.  Impacts with the higher velocity rifles actually pock the surface, raising metal on each side of the impact.  Over time, these become pronounced.  If someone shoots a .50 or .54 with healthy charge, ie: speed 1,800fps or higher on impact, they too will pock mark the targets, just as the .40's and .32's do now. Yes - those squirrel rifles are the worse for making divots in steel.  The lowest power of all, whereas the big bores, might dish a target, these actually move metal.

I once told Hatchet Jack I was going to cut the screw off that was protruding from the end of a 1 3/4" horizontal stainless bar.  At the shot, the bar swung down, the soft metal screw neatly cut off, not merely broken - which was easily observed by close examiation. The load was a pure lead .400" ball - 70gr. 3F - 2,270fps. LHV lube All the other rifle calibres and smoothbores used by our club members simply lead splash that heavy stainless bar - but the .40's that LB, Taylor and I shoot, along with the my .32 & .45 with LHV and heavy loads of 2,000fps, all pock the bar actually moving metal and creating divots.

It's amazing what the higher velocities will actually do in metal moving and penetration. Anyone youngster living near railway tracks and having a .22/250 or Swift knows what I'm talking about.

[Old Ford2]

Tires filled with sand are the best back stop I have seen.
Two rows of tires filled with sand will stop a .50 Browning, no bounce back.
They must be big tires, 15" or better.
In most places old tires are free.
When filled with sand, then covered with soil from top to back side, and seeded with grass seed they are not unsightly.
Old Ford

[RonT]

S.....after the "season" do you tear down and sift out the lead, then reconstruct.  Sounds like a plan...
R

[alsask]

 We were sighting in a .54 last year in the back yard at my son's house.  I was using a 3/4" thick pipe flange about 14" in dia.  We noticed that small branches and leaves from the surrounding trees near the target would drop with each shot.

We suspected ricochets but on closer examination we noticed a cardboard box beside the target was peppered with tiny holes.  It turns out the balls were literaly disintegrating about 1/2 their mass and leaving a nickel sized squashed slug on the ground.  This was at about 40 yards with 85 grains 2f, Hornady swaged ball.