Mixing powders - Is it safe?

[Naphtali]

I shoot percussion guns now. My second (last) big bore flintlock barrel blank was completed last week. I hope to have one flintlock rifle in shootable condition by August?? To create more black powder loadings than I might otherwise, I'm wondering whether black powder and [fill in the blank] black powder substitute can be mixed in my horn without regard to layering.

If burn rates by volume are nearly identical, could I mix black with substitute 1:1 or 1:2? If such a mixture is safe to load, might mixtures of this ilk combust in flintlocks with sufficient ease that only priming charge need be 100 percent black powder?

This appears to be such a simple obvious solution to reduce dependence upon black powder that I suspect something is seriously amiss with the idea.

Has this been attempted? If it has, with what result? If it has not been attempted, please describe/identify risks I would have by testing such mixtures?

[northmn]

When Pyrodex came out they recommended a "priming charge" of about 10 grains or so loaded before the Pyrodex to ignite the charge for flintlocks. The dependence on black taht some talk about seems to be based on whether you can get it from local retailers.  Graf's for instance will sell BP in lots as low as 4-5 pounds.  Even paying Hazmat I can shoot BP less expensive than phoney powders.  I would only use the priming charge to use the other stuff up.  BP is more accurate anyway and a lot of the marketing for the fake powders is partially BS as BP is not that hard to clean and if you do not like the smell shoot centerfires as the best way to experience a BP firearm is to shoot BP. 

DP

[westerner]

I tried Pyrodex the year it came out. BP worked much better and was accurate. And I liked the smell of the stinky stuff. My wife did not, har har.

I had some Pyrodex left over many years later. Tried it in some BP cartridge guns. One shot went bang, the next might go poof. Back to BP with those rifles. Then I tried some more modern substitutes a few years ago in the late 90s. One worked okay in my .50 percussion rifle.  Better to just use BP.  For me that is. Theres guys out there that do good with subsitutes.  If I have to make duplex loads to get it to burn, it's of no use to me.  

I think theres a partial container of some BP substitute in my magazine. It clunks when I shake it. Dont know what thats about.  

                                  Joe.

[greybeard]

Theres enough atuff to concentrate on whilst loading and shooting m L guns without fussing around with duplex loads. IMHO   Bob

[bgf]

Just another option -- Black Mag XP is supposed to work as the main charge in a flintlock.  The problem is that the factory burned down (blew up?) and supply is limited currently, so that it may be harder to find than BP.  I've never tried it, although my neighbor uses it and likes it in his percussion rifles, but its there.  Probably if BP regulations continue to get more restrictive, there will be other substitutes available for flintlocks.  I think the main reason there's not already is lack of demand in the culture of flinters, not to mention the small size of the market when compared to inlines, etc.

[Daryl]

I had some Black Mag and just to see if the mfg'r was telling the truth, I loaded my .45 flintlock with it.

The lock, which showered the phony stuff in the pan (looked like beach sand) with sparks, so much and hard, some even bounced out of the pan but wouldn't ignite it.

I then used a burning stick to ignite the pan.

For the next shot in the test, I primed with black, with Black Mag for the main charge only. The pan went instantly, whoof - then a lagging clatchssssboom went the main charge.  I came to the conclusion that anyone who made or spouted off about the superiority of phony powders could not be trusted.

[Al Lapp]

Many years ago I either read or heard that if you shot pyrodex and cleaned your rifle with a certain bore cleaner (sorry forgot what it was) it would react with the pyrodex and ruin your bore. I have only used black powder in my guns since. But then bp is easy to get where I live.    Al

[Daryl]

I shoot percussion guns now. My second (last) big bore flintlock barrel blank was completed last week. I hope to have one flintlock rifle in shootable condition by August?? To create more black powder loadings than I might otherwise, I'm wondering whether black powder and [fill in the blank] black powder substitute can be mixed in my horn without regard to layering.

If burn rates by volume are nearly identical, could I mix black with substitute 1:1 or 1:2? If such a mixture is safe to load, might mixtures of this ilk combust in flintlocks with sufficient ease that only priming charge need be 100 percent black powder?

This appears to be such a simple obvious solution to reduce dependence upon black powder that I suspect something is seriously amiss with the idea.

Has this been attempted? If it has, with what result? If it has not been attempted, please describe/identify risks I would have by testing such mixtures?

\


There would be no danger in mixing the powders and using a normal stricken measure.  The only danger is in using something that is loaded with perchlorates in an otherwise, hopefully non-pitted bore.  Perchlorates, ie: chlorates X 3(?), are what made corrosive primers of the 1st war period up until in some cases, the late 40's early 50's, corrosive.   Failure to clean the bore properly, and often , resulted in pits that grew in size, quickly.  Remember all the advertising in rthe 50's and 60's - Kleenbore priming -MOW- non- corrosive! It was a big deal.  Compare the size of a primer and it's total compound, of which the chlorate is a very small amount, with your main charge, which is comprised of some 17% chlorate or perchlorate.

This has been addressed here several times - so - the word is, if at all possible, use real BP. If not, clean often - ie: after shooting, I recommend you clean the gun daily for three days emersion of the barrel and breech in water and the water pumped in and out, not just wiped out with damp patches, just to make certain whatever has been driven into the pores of the steel is neutralized.  After drying, spray well with an anti-moisture lube, like WD40, then patch that out, then use a corrosion resister oil.  Before shooting, you'll have to wipe that out of the bore.

This might be overboard, but that's better than ruining the bore.  We've seen it happen to a number of barrels which were always cleaned well. The owners knew how to clean them - but only cleaned them once and put them away, thinking they were good.  He used only Pyrodex until he had destroyed 4 himself - 2 custom, 2 factory. He hasn't shown us his .54 barrel, which we pretty well know is also toast.  He would not take out word for it, but finally asked a major writer for the MuzzleBlasts who confirmed what we'd been telling the fellow. Until then, I guess he thought the barrels were faulty.

The Ogre here at ALR has had a great deal of experience with this stuff & what it does to steel and iron & even stainless steel and recommends not to use it - that's good enough for me.

[Naphtali]

Many thanks to all for your information. Mixing powders would not be a first choice. Rather it would be an emergency measure that would not become a grenade when ignited.

[Mad Monk]

Many years ago I either read or heard that if you shot pyrodex and cleaned your rifle with a certain bore cleaner (sorry forgot what it was) it would react with the pyrodex and ruin your bore. I have only used black powder in my guns since. But then bp is easy to get where I live.    Al

The bore cleaner in question was Hoppe's with ammonia.  The combination of chloride (from the perchlorate in Pyrodex) with ammonia is highly corrosive.  This was written up in Rifle magazine back in the mid-1980's.

E. Ogre

[Dphariss]

Many years ago I either read or heard that if you shot pyrodex and cleaned your rifle with a certain bore cleaner (sorry forgot what it was) it would react with the pyrodex and ruin your bore. I have only used black powder in my guns since. But then bp is easy to get where I live.    Al

The bore cleaner in question was Hoppe's with ammonia.  The combination of chloride (from the perchlorate in Pyrodex) with ammonia is highly corrosive.  This was written up in Rifle magazine back in the mid-1980's.

E. Ogre

Thanks E. 
IIRC the manufacturer stated that any liquid put on Pyrodex fouling required the fouling to be immediately removed from the gun.
I have a copy of the magazine pages with comments by the three parties to the "problem" of using Pyrodex in  a 375 H&H then dosing the bore with a nitro solvent and leaving it overnight.
But I would have to dig for it to get the exact details.

Dan

[Daryl]

Interesting, there isn't very much ammonia in Hoppe's #9 to start with, which is why it is a lousy copper solvent today - there are many that are better. I wonder what would happen if a solvent with a high concentration of ammonia in it (CR10 & Sweets ring a bell), were introduced to pyrodex fouing - would it be good for giving steel an aged look, or would the results be similar to ordinary clorox?

[bgf]

It might produce mustard gas if you used Sweets ! 

[Blacksmoke]

'Phony powders" are designed for "phony guns"!    I stay away from both!      Hugh Toenjes

[Daryl]

I think perhaps most guys who shoot the phoney guns, use them out of a ignorance and simply or simplistically following advertising, Hugh, but Pyrodex was marketed in the mid to late 70's, prior to the phoney guns even hitting the market - so it was originally 'designed' for all BP guns.

Hopefully we ALL stay away from the phonys.

[Mad Monk]

Interesting, there isn't very much ammonia in Hoppe's #9 to start with, which is why it is a lousy copper solvent today - there are many that are better. I wonder what would happen if a solvent with a high concentration of ammonia in it (CR10 & Sweets ring a bell), were introduced to pyrodex fouing - would it be good for giving steel an aged look, or would the results be similar to ordinary clorox?

It does not take much chloride or ammonia to start the corrosion.
The potassium chloride left from the Pyrodex combustion is noted for pitting as well as rust formation.  Almost all of the chloride salts will cause surface pitting in varying degrees.  Chlorides are noted for pit corrosion versus thin films of surface rusting.

The potassium carbonate produced by the combustion of any of the brands of black powder or the various substitutes will cause thin surface films of rust to form.  Under the right conditions of moisture this surface rusting will occur in just a few short hours.  As soon as you add any chloride to the residue you get both the surface rusting and the pitting.


When I would be asked to look at a new powder that came on the market I would use brass strips and steel strips.  Flash some of the powder on them and then sit them out back under roof overnight.  Then look at them under the microscope.  Pitting and surface rusting were evidence of some chloride content.  Up until 2000 you would see some traces of potassium chloride in GOEX that was found in their source of potassium nitrate.  This gave rusting and pitting.  When they were forced to switch to potassium nitrate imported from Chile it was chloride free and did not give pitting.

In dealing with this issue it centers on once a certain amount is found in the residue there will be pitting and increasing the amounts does not necessarily increase the amount of pitting.  There is what might be viewed as a threshold amount.

I am reminded of old specifications for the ingredients in black powder.  The maximum chloride amount allowed was a fraction of a percent.  More than the standard would cause problems in the gun.  Or so they related.

The effect of the ammonia, in any amount, is simply to speed up the process.  This is seen in the use of ammonium chloride as a barrel browning agent.  When I used ammonium chloride (salamoniac) in the basement rusting was complete in 3 to 4 hours and ready for another application.

E. Ogre