Primers for tubelock?

[R. Hare]

Hello to all.

I have a tubelock barrel, and this might be jumping the gun a bit, as the barrel's All I've got!......But are primers available for tubelocks?

No rush, as I guess I have mi work cut out making the rest, but just curious.

Thanks in advance!

Richard.

[Harnic]

Not sure what a tubelock is!  Can you post a picture?

[Feltwad]

To the best of my knowledge Tubelock primers are not manufactured .if you want to shoot a tubelock you will have to make your own tube.I must point out for safety it is dangerous practice and all work must be carried out under glass. it is many years since I shot my tubelocks and are now in my collection. The first is a 6 gage live pigeon gun by John Cox and is very rare and very expensive, the second is a 6 gage Fowler which I used for geese and ducks  by Alfred Clayton  who was gunmaker after the death of Joseph Manton to Peter Hawker the famous wildfowler and game shot,Clayton is mentioned many times in Hawkers diaries.
The three main types of tubelock were first by Manton the anvil on which the tube laid was part of the lock plate and the tube was held in place by a device similar to a frizzen.The next was the type by Cox the anvil was also part of the lockplate and the tube was held in place by a scissor type of spring {see image},the last was by Clayton and the anvil was screwed into the touch hole to stop the tube from blown out and maybe hitting a person next to him the Hammer nose was fitted with a shield {see image}.There were other types of tubelock but those that I have mentioned were the most used in the UK.
The period for the tubelock was between the flint lock and the percussion lock,Manton was one of the first  other followed with the patch and pill locks these were soon taken over by the percussion cap although Tubelocks were still been built  in 1850.
I have enclosed images of two tubelocks.
Feltwad
John Cox live pigeon gun in 6 gage note the double pistol grip


A Clayton and a John Cox both are 6 gage



John Cox with tube in place


Clayton with tube in place


Clayton note the shield on the side of the hammer nose


The John Cox cased


Richard hope this has been of some help
Feltwad

[R. Hare]

Thank you for the beautiful pictures, Feltwad.

I thought your tubelock was a John Cox, as the barrel is identical to mine, exept this one ia an eight-bore  (I told you a six in the other thread, but was going off memory!)

I will ask my daughter to post pictures of mine for you.
The barrel reads;

John Cox, no 7, Bernard street, Southampton.

It is a high end barrel, with double gold band, and gold lined touchhole, as is youres.

The story behing the barrel is rather interesting;
A friend living in Toronto area worked as a bush-pilot, and about 40 years ago was flying supplies into a remote area of Northern Ontario for siesmic workers.
(It was about four hours flying north of Toronto.)

After dropping off supplies for the siesmic workers, "Fred" was having a look around, and close by was a ruined cabin, all fallen in, roof nearly on the ground, He crawled in for a look and spied something  in the eaves of the roof, wrapped in a rag.
When he found it was a barrel, and loading rod, he about tore the place apart looking for the rest of the gun!..no such luck.
 He didn't know wether the workers had found the rest, and missed the barrel, or what, but has thought about it a lot ever since.
I told him to go back and look again, and he said he knew where the cabin was exactly.....within about 10,000 sq. miles!

My friend Gave me this barrel about a year ago,  I will never forget his kindness.
He said it'd sat on his bench this long, so might as well give it to me!
"Fred" "scotch-brited" the little bit of surface rust , but the bore is lovely, and still shines...and it rings like a bell.

Feltwad, Would it be too much trouble to take more pictures of this fine gun?  close-up of the lock, and stock. I would like to make the parts some day, and would like it to be as near as possible to the original.
I know I can't turn out work like John Cox!... but neither can I afford someone else to do it all for me!
This is the first time I have ever seen a gun with double pisto; grip!
I have been meddling with guns since the 60's and never run accress one 'til today

Thanks again Feltwad.

Richard.

[Feltwad]

Richard.
Give me a few days and I see what I can do,

Feltwad

[R. Hare]

Thank you Sir.

In the meantime, we will try and post some pictures.

Richard.

[doug]

      Except that it would mean replacing the "drum" in your barrel, you might consider using .22 rimfire shells with no powder or bullet as the surrogate tubes.  Recognize that the priming on a long rifle shell comes about 1/2 way up the shell, it is most definitely not confined to the base or to the rolled rim.

cheers Doug

[R. Hare]

Thanks, Doug.
Had no idea a .22 had so much primer powder in it....Hmmmm....cogs going 'round...

Jury still out on tubes.  Have a very few original ones, but don't want to use them of course.

Richard.

[doug]

     the primer is a pale varnish like layer covering the base and coming up the sides.  Possible that the difference in accuracy of various brands of .22 shells is in part how uniform the priming is from shell to shell.
      As applies to tube locks, with a drum to accept the empty shell and a strong hammer with than sort of blade on it, with a bit of luck it should crush the priming compound and fire the gun.  Trick will be getting the blade to strike on the priming compound and to crush the shell enough to fire the compound

cheers Doug

[R. Hare]

Doug,

In Greener's book, he gives a recipe for priming fulminate, for those living in out-of-the -way places, but messing with this stuff is a bit like having a casual walk through a minefield.
I'd rather not...
Would be nice to make tubes to look like originals, but have,'t got anything firm, yet.

Richard.

[Feltwad]

For safety sake forget about 22 cases it has too much fultimate compound and if it did ignite from a blow of the hammer and not in the chamber of a gun would surely fly  into pieces.A tubelock tube is a piece of annealed copper tube 1/16 diameter and holds about the same amount of fultimate compound as a large percussion cap,sometimes these do burst .
If you take my advise keep of 22 cases.
Feltwad

[doug]

For safety sake forget about 22 cases it has too much fultimate compound and if it did ignite from a blow of the hammer and not in the chamber of a gun would surely fly  into pieces.

      a minor nit pick first; the priming is lead styphnate with glass powder to create friction and heat.  It is not fulminate of any metal.

     More importantly the shells do not fragment and the priming compound does not ignite in the chamber of the gun it shoots a flame into the flash hole.  The real danger of tube locks is that burning gasses shoot out of the flash hole and potentially shoot the tube sideways into the person beside you.   The total amount of priming compound is about double what is found in a musket cap.

     I would suspect that safety glasses are more important with tube locks than with other priming methods and that testing would be important to confirm that any type of tube primer would not spray powder residues into your face

cheers Doug

[Feltwad]

Doug.
I would be interested to know how long have you used 22 cases in your tubelock and what was the overall result.
Feltwad

[keweenaw]

In Neal and Back's Manton book they report that one of the major complains against tube locks was the tube hitting the shooter to your right if it came out of the holder.  These things basically just weren't a good idea, but were invented by Manton to try to get around Forsythe's patent and to provide an easy conversion of existing flintlocks.

Tom

[Feltwad]

Maybe there was a problem with the tube been blown out of the touchhole on the early types of tubelocks but this was overcome by devices fitted either to the anvil or the hammer nose {see images in this thread}.The Clayton tubelock in the past I have shot this gun for a great number of years and never had a tube blown out of the touchhole although some did burst.It was the percussion cap that saw an end to most of the tubelocks.
Feltwad

[Daryl]

The bursting of the tube would be my greatest concern. The rifle's breech must have a proper fence as the old ones most certainly did.  I would not trust most flint breech system's as the fence is not as well pronounced as in the later percussion guns.   I think a percussion breech, cock altered to strike properly and with an appropriate pan might be the best system for building a tube lock.
: As to Doug's grasp of the technicalities involved igniton sytems & their components, I would not doubt his knowledge.