17h Century German Powder Flask

[Shreckmeister]

Roger Gonzales confirmed this piece to be a 17th century Germanic powder flask
with a replaced spout.  There is still evidence of the guilding remaining on the brass
and he said the 17th century velvet was made with a process that lasted much longer
than the modern processes.  A fine example of a musketeers powder flask.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I cannot sorry.

Coryjoe

[LRB]

  I am probably totally off base, but the spout looks like a cartridge case, and the rest of it makes me believe mediteranean, fairly recent historically. Just a  WAG with no more ground than suspicion.

[smart dog]

Hi Suzkat,
It has the correct form of a relatively simple, possibly military 17th century flask.  However, it was either made in the late 19th century or somebody replaced the original valve and spout with a drawn Martini-Henry bullet casing.

dave

[Sean]

Maybe Persian or Afghan?

Sean

[Shreckmeister]

Hi Suzkat,
It has the correct form of a relatively simple, possibly military 17th century flask.  However, it was either made in the late 19th century or somebody replaced the original valve and spout with a drawn Martini-Henry bullet casing.

dave

Dave,  The more I look at other's, I think the flask is old and someone replaced the spout.  Just picked it up on Ebay last night so when I have it in hand, I should be able to tell more.  Sure has the look of an old matchlock
flask with a newer spout.  The opening mechanism looks old and is confusing why that is on it when it has a stopper.  How can you tell the
casing is Martini-Henry?

[smart dog]

Hi Suzkat,
I believe the short-chamber Boxer cartridges used in Martini-Henrys were unlike any other cartridges.  They were severely bottlenecked to create a 45 caliber round with a wide base to make loading and extracting the cartridge easier.  The spout looks like a drawn brass Boxer, which was introduced in the 1880's (I think) to replace the older rolled or coiled casing.  My guess is that your flask could be very old, possibly a Dutch trade item from the 16th or 17th century when their ships sailed to Africa and Asia.  Perhaps it ended up in a former British colony and a late 19th or early 20th century owner, still using the flask, mounted a new spout.  Remember, many of the guns we indentify as "North African", had Dutch designed snaphaunces from the 16th century, and were still made and used into the 20th century.  Just my guess.

dave 

[smart dog]

Hi Suzkat,
As I look more closely at the photo, what I thought was the neck of the cartridge may in fact be a stopper.  I can't really tell nor appreciate the scale.  If it is a stopper then the casing could be from any number of types of cartridges.

dave

[Shreckmeister]

Dave,  Thanks for the feedback.  Here is another picture of it.
Hoping to find some markings.

[LRB]

  By the acute angle in the shoulder, I am convinced that spout is a cartridge case. Beyond that, I still believe from the middle east, and probaly not as old as we might like to think, but that is only an opinion from someone who really doesn't know $#@* about it.

[Daryl]

Measurements would be helpful on the shoulder diameter of the case and the inside or outside diameter of the neck itself, specifying which. An expample is:  The neck is .338 is not helpful  - the I.D. is .338" or the O.D. is .338" is helpful.(or whatever the numbers might turn out to be.)

1st impression to me, is that it is .30 cal, ie: the  top part of a .308 (7.62x51mm case) or possibly a 7x57 Kort Net (Boer War short neck 7x57) case, or 7x57 or 8x57 with shortened neck.  The shoulder angle appears to be around 20 degrees which is a common size for many different calibers. Suffice to say, if this ctg. case is original to the flask, the flask can not be more than 110-115 years old, probably.

I would also hazzard a guess at Middle East. It just seems to have that 'flavour' & if so, could easily have been made for use in a firelock or caplock, in the 1890's or early 20th Century.

The diameters requested above will allow positive identification of the ctg. if that is required. It does not look to be .45 cal. to me at all, as the rest of the flast must be HUGE in that case.

[Rasch Chronicles]

I'm no expert, but....

I've been to plenty of the local Afghan bazaars. And I believe I saw that one in Bagram a few months ago! Only kidding...

Now I'm not sure, if in fact that is an Afghan/Pakistan copy, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. It was actually the first thought I had when I looked at the picture.  It just has that "look."

They sell a ton of Martini Henry look-allikes to the gullible soldiers that come through here, along with another ton or two of "Antique," "Vintage," even "Soviet era" copies out of Pakistan. They even try to pass off that cheap harbor frieght stuff like surveyors compasses, sextants, brass telescopes as early English explorer stuff.

Again I'm just voicing my opinion, I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination

Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan™
Scouting for Hogs, Chronicles Style!

[smart dog]

Hi Albert,
Your opinion may be bang on here.  Without the flask in hand, it is hard to tell.  Thanks for your sacrifice and efforts and keep safe.  You have guns to build when you get back.

dave

[Shreckmeister]

I took the flask to the Bushy Run show and got no strong opinions there, but
met Roger Gonzales at Lewisburg yesterday and after hands on he said the
flask is 16th-17th century german musketeers flask with a replaced spout.
He seemed to be very knowledgeable and noted there were remnants of
the brass having been guilded under a jewelers loop.  Makes an interesting
discussion piece.  Thanks to all for their feedback.