Author Topic: help ID this rifle  (Read 16471 times)

MGretz

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help ID this rifle
« on: January 17, 2011, 06:13:25 AM »
Does anyone recognize the initials of this gunmaker?  Looks like JK or LK to me.  Any ideas?  More pictures of rest of rifle will follow.

Mike


« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 01:19:46 AM by Dennis Glazener »

MGretz

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2011, 06:14:15 AM »
more pictures (edited by Dennis to show photos)

















« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 01:23:36 AM by Dennis Glazener »

Offline Curt J

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2011, 07:09:25 AM »
It's a classic example of a Southern Mountain Rifle, with great architecture.  I would guess that it is East Tennessee, but some others here know more than I do about these rifles.  There are quite a few possibilities on those initials.  Maybe someone here will recognize them.

Offline Ken G

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2011, 07:20:47 AM »
Welcome the forum and thanks for posting the pictures.  I was able to convert one of your links to a photo.  Do you a picture showing the tang by chance?  

I agree, East Tennessee rifle and I'd say upper East TN.  The buttplate, trigger guard, triggers and architecture all look TN to me but I haven't seen a capbox like that on one.  
  
No idea on the maker though.  Sorry

Cheers,
Ken
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 07:24:03 AM by Ken Guy »
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

MGretz

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2011, 04:02:55 PM »
Aw heck!  I forgot to take a picture of the tang.  Here's as close as I can come this morning (gotta get going to work).

« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 01:22:57 AM by Dennis Glazener »

38_Cal

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2011, 08:31:31 PM »
Thanks to Mike for coming over yesterday and taking photos of my rifle.  Also thanks to him for showing me this forum!

A bit of history on it, though it won't help with much...I picked it up about 30 years ago from the Old West Gun Room in El Cerrito, CA, when it was run by Dangerous Dave Cumberland, formerly the Old Western Scrounger until he sold his mail order business to Val Forgett.  Dave had bought it from one of the local moving companies, as abandoned stored goods, along with a halfstock Great Western Gun Works rifle, which I also bought.  The fullstock is about .31 caliber, the halfstock is about .34.  According to Dave, both rifles were in the same abandoned shipment.  I'm afraid that I have no other information on them.  I'll try to get Mike over to get a photo of the tang later this week, and if there's any interest, to get photos of the other rifle to post.

David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2011, 01:17:13 AM »
Sent you an email
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Joey R

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2011, 03:26:41 AM »
In the cheek side pic it doesn't look like the tang reaches the comb.....I think??
Joey.....Don’t ever ever ever give up! Winston Churchill

38_Cal

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2011, 04:13:50 AM »
In the cheek side pic it doesn't look like the tang reaches the comb.....I think??

You are correct.  It stops about an inch shy of the comb.  Mike came over this afternoon and took some more photos, I'm sure that he'll post them after a bit.

David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA

MGretz

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2011, 05:07:25 AM »
Dennis - THANKS for the friendly email with instructions using photos on the forum, and for editing my original posts to make the photos show.  Very helpful.  I think I got it now! :-)

Ken, here is a picture of the tang.

As David Kaiser said, this is his rifle.  I saw it on a visit to his gun shop this past weekend (he's a full time gunsmith who's shop is just 4 blocks from my house), and I immediately wanted to learn all I could about it.  This forum seemed like the place to start. 

Mike Gretz
Montezuma, Iowa

P.S.  I've also reposted the first photo which shows the rifle maker's initials on top flat of the barrel, between the breech and the rear sight.
 




MGretz

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2011, 05:38:15 AM »
a few more details photos...













Offline Curt J

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 07:34:11 AM »
The hand forged trigger guard and buttplate are exceptionally well done.  The overall quality of this rifle is very good, in fact.

 David and Mike, why don't you two bring that rifle to the Prairie State Longrifle Show, in Princeton, Illinois, Feb 25 & 26?  There will be a number of people there with knowledge about Southern longrifles, including Jerry Noble, who has written four books on the subject.

38_Cal

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 08:51:08 AM »
Thank you Curt.  I have a friend in Countryside that I shoot Schuetzen rifles with that I occasionally stay with and help with work in his shop...  Can you get me more information on the show...point me to a website or send a flyer, whatever?

Thanks,
David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA

Offline Curt J

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2011, 03:07:10 PM »
David,

At the bottom of the list of forums here, there is one for "Show Announcements".  There is a bit more about the show there.  For more information, e-mail me at ilgunmkr@yahoo.com

38_Cal

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2011, 05:54:26 PM »
Thank you Curt.  Eventually I will learn my way around this site!   ;D

David

Offline G-Man

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2011, 08:18:37 PM »
Very nice piece.  Very rare to see any forend moldings, much less a double molding, on an East Tennessee mountain rifle, especially a percussion era gun. I will have to look through the "K's" in Jerry Noble's books tonight.

Guy

Offline G-Man

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2011, 02:51:48 PM »
What about the possibility of it being "SK"?  The reason I ask is that Jerry Noble lists one of the Kellers (Samuel) working in Blount County in the mid 1800s and sometimes using "oval" patchboxes and forend moldings and signed his rifles "SK".  There were several other Kellers working there in that area, at least as early as 1825.  It looks like the family moved to Tennessee from Virginia sometime between 1815 and 1825 since Samuel was born in Virginia in 1815.

Granted this box is not oval, but the forend moldings are rare on mountain rifles and I would say this gun falls at least into Samuel's timeframe.  Ken, Roger, Ian or Bookie might know - are any of you familiar with the work of Samuel or any of the Kellers and does this rifle look like it could be one of theirs?  I recall seeing only one Keller rifle before and it did not have as much of a sleek East Tennessee look as this gun does - the hardware was a bit different if I recall, but there are endless variations on this stuff and the known makers did vary their work.

If so that would put your rifle's origins as over by the Smokies.

Nice, well made mountain rifle. Thanks for posting it.

Guy
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 06:59:20 PM by Guy Montfort »

MGretz

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2011, 04:01:19 PM »
Thanks Guy.  Great insight.

Does anyone have any ideas about the lock?  If it could be identified, perhaps the hunt could begin for a proper hammer and other parts to make it complete.  Take a close look at the closeup picture which shows some engraving aft of the hammer pivot hole - forward of that has all been obliterated by corrosion.

Mike

MGretz

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2011, 04:04:19 PM »



keweenaw

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2011, 06:43:46 PM »
That's a pretty generic hardware store lock.  Finding original parts to rebuilt it will be a challenge as you would have to find another identical original lock in usable condition.  With some fitting the internals and hammer from one of Chambers or L&R's percussion lock might be made to work.  Easiest thing to do it to take the plate along to a dealer who stocks all of the current locks and see what can be made to work with some mix and matching.

Tom

38_Cal

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2011, 07:28:21 PM »
Some really great information, guys!  I really appreciate all the help and comments.

David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA

Offline Curt J

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2011, 05:43:48 AM »
I talked to Jerry Noble on the phone last night. He does not do computers, so I could not direct him to this thread.  I described your rifle to him in detail, but did not mention any opinions that were already expressed. He immediately said "Samuel Keller".

Offline WElliott

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 07:13:36 AM »
In 1993, I acquired a Samuel Keller rifle which remained in my collection for some years and this rifle does not strike me as being by the same hand.  That Keller rifle, which I unfortunately no longer own, as well as a pistol I know of which I believe Keller also made, have long tapered tangs with an fleur de leis finial.  My Keller rifle had a long patchbox, without sideplates, also with a fleur de leis finial.  Robin Hale, as I recall, told me that was typical of Samuel Keller's work.  Unlike Mike's rifle, it had a swell in the belly line just behind the rear pipe; a different style cheekpiece; and different hardware.   Of course, I would be the last to say that over the course of a career southern gunsmiths typically made the same gun over and over. I know better than that. However, even if I was not familiar with a known Samuel Keller rifle, the tang and the incised lines of the forestock of Mike's rifle make me think more of western North Carolina than Tennessee.  If someone had asked me how to attribute an East Tennessee rifle with the initials S.K., I would have said Samuel Keller, just as my friend Jerry did.  Seeing pictures of it it is another matter.  Just my thoughts . . .   In any event, you have a nice rifle Mike.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 07:28:58 AM by WElliott »
Wayne Elliott

38_Cal

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 08:20:14 AM »
Um, Wayne, Mike was kind enough to take photos and post them for me, as I don't have a working digital camera at this time.  Thanks for taking a look, and your comments.  Everything posted from all of you guys has helped me with my knowledge base on this rifle. 

David

Offline WElliott

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Re: help ID this rifle
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 04:56:06 PM »
Sorry David.  You do have a nice rifle with very pleasing architecture, whoever may have made it and wherever exactly it was made.  Among my favorite longrifles, after years of collecting, are those made in Western North Carolina, Southern Valley of Virginia and Eastern Tennessee  We could draw a 200 mile circle radiating from the confluence (if I can apply that term to land) of Virginia, North Carolina and Tennessee and find that longrifles made in that region often share similarities.  In some locales and in some makers we see very distinctive traits. But those may be the exception.  That makes sense, because of the migratory pattern the settlers followed.  These are all an irreplaceable part of our material heritage.
Wayne Elliott