Sideplates

[EricB]

Been playing around designing Sideplate for Pistol - trying to use Golden Mean Proportions; recently got a set of GM dividers from MBS. Have noticed 2 things: (1) I would have thought a Sideplate should be the same overall length as the Lock, but I'm finding that's often not the case as I look at both originals and Sideplates that are made to go with certain modern Locks, and (2) I find very few Sideplates that actually subscribe to Golden Mean proportions, even if the rest of the Gun appears to to follow GM proportions pretty closely. Most of the Sideplates I've looked at are longer in the Tail Section than the GM says they should be, and quite a few are a little longer than their corresponding Locks as well.

Any opinions??

Eric

[Don Getz]

Son of a gun, how about that.   You can take that dividers and find something that is 1/3 of something else, isn't that the
way it works?..........Don

[California Kid]

Here we go again with the GM. Sorry. Make the sideplate however you want. As long as it looks good to you.

[EricB]

I'm no Slave of the GM - just find the notion interesting. I trust my Eye as much as anything.  But it does seem to me that the Lock and Sideplate oughta be about the same overall dimensions, to keep things balanced.

E

[JTR]

I love the Golden Mean!

EricB, if you search the archives, you'll find a couple of good discussions on the good ol GM.

John

[Blacksmoke]

Eric B.:   The "golden mean of proportion" is only a guide line - it is not meant to be adhered to with total exactness.  So don't be intimidated by certain publications that promote it's place in the art world.   Go ahead and do your own design if it pleases you that's all that counts!     Hugh Toenjes

[Acer Saccharum]

I usually end up making my own sideplates....it is rare that I can find one that will line up with the lock screws AND sit at the right attitude to flow with the curve of the lock panel.

On that note, there are several originals that come to mind, one is a Beck, I think, where the side plate is just about breaking out of the sideplate panel, and it's at a wonky angle. No apparent thought to making it conform to the flow of the rest of the gun. Just slap it on there and get the gun out the door. It was surely a purchased or ready-made plate.

[Lucky R A]

    Apparently there was a lot of what Tom just mentioned about "slapping on there and get it out the door."  If you look through something like Kindig's book or others you will find about as many misaligned sideplates as you do correctly aligned ones.  When making a copy of an original I do try to correct things like that.  Wrong is wrong, even if it was done by a "Master" 200 years ago. 
     A little trick that helps to correctly make a side plate and other inlays is to save the flat clear plastic packaging that is about .005-010 thick,  Cut a piece big enough to cover the area of the sideplate.  Make the lock holes in the correct position and screw in your lock screws.  Now take your fine point Sharpee pen and draw your sideplate onto the clear plastic, making sure everything is where you want it.  You can see through the plastic and see exactly how your sideplate or inlay will fit.  Now cut your pattern out of the clear plastic and transfer it to your sideplate material.   This gives you a visual reference before you get into cutting metal.   Works for me and saves a lot of time and material..

Ron

[Ed Wenger]

Ron,

What a great idea!  That's one of those "why didn't I think of that"!  Seriously, that's very helpful and I greatly appreciate you sharing the technique.

             Ed

[flehto]

Ron...brilliant idea!  I presently clamp the brass sheet on the wood and center punch the 2 bolt locations, use a dividers to scribe the radii around the punch marks and go form there. Of course it takes a few tries because I'm working "blind"  but  using your method would really speed things up. thanks....Fred

[Rasch Chronicles]

Fellows,

Here is a source for clear acetate that you can use for any number of purposes. Grafix Clear Acetate Sheets It comes in thicknesses up to .010.

I'm sure it is probably stocked at any good art supply store, and maybe even the big box office supply places.

Best Regards,
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™
Scouting for Hogs, Chronicles Style!

[EricB]

Thanx for all the input, Guys. Nice to know that I'm not the only one to have such thoughts on the matter. I have noticed that a lot of sideplates seem to be added almost as an afterthought, with not much attempt at achieving a visual balance with the corresponding Lock, let alone a good fit in the Mortise, while some look as if they were made by the same guy that made the Lock, which I suppose some may well have been.

So, I shall now assume I have a License to Kill, and shall trust to my Eye, and a general appreciation of 18th Century Lines.

Thanx again - all Comments and Ideas, some very Clever, have been duly noted.

As usual, there is more than one way to skin a Cat...

Eric

[KLMoors]

Ron, sweet tip! Thanks.

[David Rase]

I perfer to subscribe to "the eye don't lie" principle before the "Golden Mean principle.
DMR

[Dave Dolliver]

I agree with you,  Dave.  Trust your eye to tell you what looks good.

Dave Dolliver

[northmn]

When the GM came up a while back I looked it up on a few sites.  It's interest became more popular in Dan Brown's The DaVinchi Code.  Some thought that an artist's canvass should follow the GM for height and width, but research on various masterpieces showed that it was not so common as to be a standard.  It has been used some in archetecture for windows, but again not slavishly folowed.  One individual thought that he had the answer in that the average human dimensions from the navel followed the GM from the top of the head to the navel compared to the bottom of the feet to the navel.  Other researchers did not find that to be true or if true one would have to measure a very large population.  I seriously doubt that Miss America candidates are ever measured in that manner.  Research on the GM found it loosely to follow anything from 1-1.4 to 1-1.75.  In our base 10 system it cannot be truly achieved as it is like pi, an irrational number.  With pi the circumference of a circle is never closed and with the GM you can never reach the perfect proportion (math has to use the thoery of limits to account for these things)  A true artist sees the best proportions and does not need the crutch, as Dave and Dave pointed out.  Thickness of the sideplate is more of a concern to me. 

DP

[EricB]

Best article I found on the GM was back in June 87 edition of Journal of Historical Arms Making Technology. Article was by Barry C. Bohnet. The whole JHAT series was pretty impressive....

Eric

[northmn]

The true GM is 1 -1.618..... or 1/2*(1 plus the square root of 5).   A fairly close approximation is 1- 1 and 5/8 which would be handiest on a standard rule scale.  As I mentioned, when a few mathematicians researched its use they found that what was often called the GM was anywhere from 1.4 to 1.75 inches.  So while it seems to be a common proportion it is at best an approximation to the artists and others that used its application and not something that needs to be painstakingly measured.  It has certain properties in geometric constructions such as a regular pentagram.  It's use also does not guarantee appropriate proportions or functions. 

DP

[Blacksmoke]

northmn:   My head hurts!

[Lucky R A]

   Blacksmoke,  I am with you.  If I had to do higher math to build longrifles, I would have quit---never started....  Enjoy the experience of building something you can take out and shoot.  You will make mistakes, we all do--I still do, the are just not serious and I am better at covering them.  Life is short, enjoy it and do not obsess.

[Don Getz]

Lucky.........what's going on, why you up so early (6:22),...pipes frozen?   Was down close to "0" this morning, coldest
morning this winter, and tonight is supposed to be worse.   Then, on the other hand, you could be playing football in
Pittsbugh tonight.  I know, this has nothing to do with the "Golden mean", just the mean part............Don

[okieboy]

 Northmn, the simplest reduction of the GM for shop use is 5+3=8, so any length can be divided by 8 and the result multiplied by 5 and 3. This can often be done in ones head, but a simple calculator is kept handy in my shop. Sometimes it can give you a starting point, but other times it is laughably at cross purpose with "form follows function". For example by the GM, a 48" barrel would call for an 18' grip rail; drilling 12" is exciting enough.
  My picnic table at minus 16 degrees in central Minnesota.

[Jim Kibler]

For me it's really quite simple.  If you have the choice in positioning a feature, put it where it looks good.  Often 1/4 doesn't look good, neither does 1/2, but somewhere between the two often is most pleasing.  It's really that simple.

[Pete G.]

For me it's really quite simple.  If you have the choice in positioning a feature, put it where it looks good.  Often 1/4 doesn't look good, neither does 1/2, but somewhere between the two often is most pleasing.  It's really that simple.

I agree, but the fly in the ointment is what looks good to one, may not to another. My smattering of formal education in art and architecture both taught the GM as a starting place, but in the end it usually worked out to about a 2/3 proportion, which is really just a simplification of the GM. A feature may look good or not and sometimes we don't know exactly why. It usually comes down to sense of proportion.

[northmn]

My picnic table would look like that if I could see beyond the snow piles.  Got down to -22 a couple of nights ago.  The 3X5 card is given as an example of the GM but does not compute  as a true golden mean.  If you make a rectangle to GM specs and draw a square inside the rectangle, the smaller rectangle to the side will have GM proportions.  Makes it handy for mechanical artistic applications but for practical use we use a range of dimensions and call them the GM.  Also the GM was not intended to be used in a linear fashion as when they say the forearm is in GM proportions to the upper arm in humans (that statement is based on a large number of samples and variations and has found to be a similar proportion to the GM, but not exactly)  People love to refer to it and it has taken on a mystique but generally proportions utiliing it are a fairly broad range.  It kind of reminds of the "power of the pyramid" craze a few yrears ago.  As others have said, lets build our stuff so it looks good and have fun. 

DP