20ga paper shot cups

[smallpatch]

OK, I know this has been covered before, BUT!!

I've got a Type G, 20ga that I just can't get to pattern.  Also, have a tremendous problem with leading up the tube!!  I'd hoped that making some paper shot cups might be the answer.

Any help???  Direction??  Recipes??

[Dave K]

You can do a search and get MANY ideas. For me, I hoped they would help me as well, but they didn't But, some have had very good luck with them, while I had no luck. I just spent more time back that patterning board with the standard old 300+ yrs. of doing it and found what the gun liked best.

[northmn]

Directions are not hard.  You make sleeves more than cups.  First make a template.  Easiest if you can find a 20 ga shotgun shell.  You insert a rough cut sleeve into it and trim down to the size you need.  A small amount of overlap does not hurt.  Brown paper shopping bag material works as does some of the heavier posterboard or whatever taht advertisements are sent out on.  I got a bunch of that stuff during election time (got a funny sort of satisfaction shooting it out of the gun too)  When you load only seat the overpowder wads deep enough so that you can insert the sleeve and pour in the shot.  Put the overshot wad in place and seat the whoel shot column.  I made a sort of a short starter of the rigt length so that the wads are about 1 1/2 inch from the muzzle.  Some even have had luck with steel doing this.  Sleeves will prevent leading but you still need to play with the pattern.

DP

[Daryl]

Yes- I'd do as DP suggests - subbing in wads or wad thickness as well as ajusting powder charge up and down will also help find a better load.

With different loads, each barrel of Taylor's cylinder bored 14 bore Manton produced 85% paterns at 27 yards. Unfortunately, those loads were different and did not shoot worth a hoot in the other barrel. After some trial and experimentation, we found a load that would give 70% and 72% loads.   Were it a single and gave patterns of 85% it would give a killing pattern out to 40 yards easily from it's cylinder bore - well past the normal 30 yards.

I only mention this to give an idea of what can be accomplished with a bit of work - an 85% pattern at 25 to 27yards would be super.

Butcher paper is handy for patterning and for learning how to aim or point your gun.  A 2" diameter felt pen dot makes a good aiming point and the paper large enough to see where the pattern is going.  It is also large enough to show when the wads are disrupting the pattern - or not, something a small target cannot do.

Other large sheets of paper, like old Forest Service logging area maps are also good for patterning, as the maps are printed only on one side.  Spring is a good time to approach someone who works for Forestry for gleaning old maps. 

[roundball]

Also, have a tremendous problem with leading up the tube!!
Any help???

Regarding the leading, are you using soft/chilled shot or hard/magnum shot?

Also, don't overlook copper or nickel plated shot...not only does it eliminate the leading, it usually makes a pattern a bit more dense due to more pellets flying straighter from less deformation.

[smallpatch]

I thought we were only supposed to shoot lead shot in a ML barrel???

[roundball]

Oh gosh no...there are definitely some types of shot that should NOT be used barebore in any shotgun like steel, Tungsten, etc, as they will score the bore walls.

But pure lead, chilled lead, magnum lead, copper plated lead, nickle plated lead are all fine..have used them all myself for a number of years now on squirrels and turkey out of .28 & .20ga Flintlocks.
As long as the core of copper plated and nickel plated shot is lead, so it can give under pressure, there's no problem.

NOTE:
Do not make the mistake of just popping into Walmart and buying a jug of copper plated BBs...because those are copper plated STEEL shot...not lead...and they will not give.

Hope all that's clear...

[sonny]

I made shot charges in dime wrappers from the bank.It seemed to fit perfect in my 20gauge double.The only problem is when i fired the barrels the "peanut bag" dime wrapper closed end bags never opened an was able to get a one holer at 35yds with her.I could kill elephants with 7 12 shot from that gun...........nutts........must try thinner paper......sonny

[Dave K]

That was my problem with all that I tried. Some have learned tricks that I never did learn. I tried thinner paper, slits in the sides and I never got consistent patterns. It sounds as if some apparently do and that is great! I went back to what had been done without wads and learned to get GREAT patterns from that. It works great for me. I can reload faster so as to not miss that chance on the next dove and I have less "stuff" to carry around. Bottom line, keep experimenting to find what fits into your style of shooting and fun. Time spent patterning is time well spent and for me, fun as well. You will see in time that there are some "rules", to the way you and your gun like and I found these rules seem to carry over to all my other shotguns/fowlers/ smoothbores.

[Daryl]

We tried the wrappers in the Manton, with poor, inconsistant results, so we went to plain shot and normal wads. It worked in both Taylor's cylinder Manton and my choked 20 bore.  Taylor is currently using 7 1/2 lead shot only, for shooting clay birds (or grouse) and I'm using reclaimed shot from the trap range - just dustin' those birds.

[northmn]

Roundball's suggestion is a good one also.  Shot wrappers do not hurt my patterns, but shot cups can keep the shot together to form a Glazer safety slug.  The wrappers simply fall away.  they prevent leading and paper could theoretically be used to fire polish your bore. The old stand by for removing leading is to wrap some filaments from a brass scouring pad used for dishes around a bore brush and work it through the bore.   One thing I will point out is that Roster found cushiopn wads and a shot sleeve to give better patterns than a shotcup in a modern shotgun.  Shot cups are really a manufacturing shortcut and also a reloading shortcut.  They do not necessarily give the best patterns.  Modern plastic shot cups or great for forming a slug also in a ML shotgun as well as plastic coating a bore.   Any cylinder bore shotgun is likely to have some donuting problems as you do not have a choke to slow down the wads.  They sure are intersting when you shoot stuff with them.  I remember squirrel hunting when a friend of mine shot a squirrel hiding in a treetop with one.  I could make a cartoon out of all the leaves a couple of branches and the squirrel when they came out of the tree.  I thought I raked a game trail when I shot a grouse with my cylinder bored 20 gauge.  They are fun.

DP

[axelp]

I have tried ITX non-toxic shot out of my smoothie with pretty decent results. TomBob Outdoors LLC makes it.

I tried using a shot cup with it once, but seem to get better results without it. I need to try the paper tube idea though. That is brilliant.

ITX is pretty soft, and very dense, it easily crushes with pliers--- yet it will not deform when shot. I plan on doing some more pattern testing and upland game hunting this year with ITX shot.

Modern shooters are saying that ITX can pattern better than lead. You can find modern loading data, as well as ITX shot for sale at www.ballisticproducts.com.

K

[roundball]

Speaking of non-toxics...EcoTungsten/Niceshot throws much more dense patterns for me than the corresponding magnum lead shot...bare bore .20ga, no shot cups, wraps, whatever...have tested #4s and #6s...but the stuff is way too expensive for me to use for general purpose shooting.

[northmn]

Speaking of non-toxics...EcoTungsten/Niceshot throws much more dense patterns for me than the corresponding magnum lead shot...bare bore .20ga, no shot cups, wraps, whatever...have tested #4s and #6s...but the stuff is way too expensive for me to use for general purpose shooting.

When I priced it it was $70.00 with postage for 2.2 pounds.  All of the softer steel subs are spendy.  I have cut off the cup and full length slit steel wads and had fair results with steel.  While a closer range proposition, hunting with BP is a closer range proposition anyway.

DP

[roundball]

I'm thinking about field testing Niceshot #6s on a turkey head this April if I can get a Tom to cooperate.
I averaged around 60 Lawrance magnum #6s on a sheet of notebook paper at 40 yards with the jug choked .62cal...and averaged around 80 with Niceshot #6s  

[axelp]

I hunted Fall and Spring Turkey this last year with ITX shot loaded in my Jim Chambers PA Fowling piece. I never got an opportunity to set it off at an actual turkey head, but I did kill a piece of paper, a dead snag, and an abandoned car door... Each one of these targets were sufficiently perforated to convince me that should I ever hit a turkey's head with ITX, it too would be perforated...

I also hunted deer this last year with ITX roundball in a 50 cal flint longrifle. The deer did not cooperate..., but I did kill a gray squirrel that was warning the world of my presence (for a good hour, I gave it a chance to leave peacefully, honest...) with a .487 ITX ball. I am certain that the squirrel could not tell the difference between being kilt with standard lead and ITX, but I believe that ITX was probably the last thing that went thru it's mind....

I think the turkeys and deer in Calfornia are "anti-hunter," because neither of them are cooperating with my endeavors...

K

[roundball]

Are you able to use ITX barebore, or does it require a shotcup of some sort like steel shot does?

[axelp]

well... I really don't know for sure.  The maker/engineer is confident it will not hurt the bore. They have tested it for years in modern shotguns and recently in a modern inline type muzzleloader... it has taken PA turkey.

I have shot it thru a bare bore and not noticed any damage. But I have only shot maybe a dozen shots? I am going to try the paper tube idea but mainly to see if I can get a tighter pattern for turkey.

Its not as soft as lead, but it is pretty soft if you can crush it easy with a pair of pliers. I would guess that worst case scenario-- with prolonged constant use--as in thousands of rounds? it might eventually wear out the bore quicker than lead would, but I doubt it is going to destroy the bore of my smoothie before I am too blind and old to shoot it anyway... I am 47. But I make no guarantees....

Ken Prather

[Daryl]

Not sure how soft it is - if easily crushed with needle nose pliers, it should be OK. The .490" and .487" ITX balls I received for testing could barely be 'touched' with a hammer - I whacked one and got a tiny flat 'spot' about the size of the head of a pin - go figure. I thought them about the same as mild steel - or maybe a bit harder than mild steel.  Apparently, the firm making them has control over how hard they are in the manufacturing process. This also varies the size - again, apparently. I refused to try them in any of my friend.s .50's for fear of damage.  A smaller ball, ie: .480" uhave been OK as it could have been patched in protective cover. The larger ones would not fit into a barrel if slightly cocked as they were then large than the bore.

If you have to use a non-toxic pellet, ie: in no-lead areas or for waterfowl - I'd try Bismuth first - that one I know won't hurt barrels.  Purdey apparently recommended it for their antique double shotguns, so it must be OK.  If the ITX balls I have are indicitive of hardeness, I wouldn't use it - but if as soft as Ken says and I have no reason to disbelieve him, then the shot would be OK in the size he tested with plyers. If any other sizes have not been squeeze tested, I'd not use them until proven to not damage.
The trouble with hard shot and double guns not built for steel or iron shot, is that if choked, the barrels can be expanded in the chokes which can break the soldered rib joints and split them apart.

[roundball]

Not sure how soft it is - if easily crushed with needle nose pliers, it should be OK. The .490" and .487" ITX balls I received for testing could barely be 'touched' with a hammer - I whacked one and got a tiny flat 'spot' about the size of the head of a pin - go figure. I thought them about the same as mild steel - or maybe a bit harder than mild steel.  Apparently, the firm making them has control over how hard they are in the manufacturing process. This also varies the size - again, apparently. I refused to try them in any of my friend.s .50's for fear of damage.  A smaller ball, ie: .480" uhave been OK as it could have been patched in protective cover. The larger ones would not fit into a barrel if slightly cocked as they were then large than the bore.

If you have to use a non-toxic pellet, ie: in no-lead areas or for waterfowl - I'd try Bismuth first - that one I know won't hurt barrels.  Purdey apparently recommended it for their antique double shotguns, so it must be OK.  If the ITX balls I have are indicitive of hardeness, I wouldn't use it - but if as soft as Ken says and I have no reason to disbelieve him, then the shot would be OK in the size he tested with plyers. If any other sizes have not been squeeze tested, I'd not use them until proven to not damage.
The trouble with hard shot and double guns not built for steel or iron shot, is that if choked, the barrels can be expanded in the chokes which can break the soldered rib joints and split them apart.

And if there are manufacturing quality control variances.....

[axelp]

All of the ITX shot products that I have seen are of the same softness and can definately be crushed easily with regular sized hand pliers. I use #4 ITX shot mostly, but I am getting some #6 ITX to try.

I asked the engineer why the larger roundball cannot be crushed like the shot (it seems WAY harder) He said that it actually is the same material, same recipe---it is just proportionally bigger, therefore if you had a giant set of pliers you could crush it too.

I have found in my testing that the .487 ITX roundball loads smoothly with zero patch cutting (greased pillow tick patch or thicker) and it hits the target about the same group as when I use lead. I am reasonably careful to load it so that the narrow band is parallel with the bore, and so far I have had zero problems. Like I said above, while out hunting deer, I have killed a squirrel with it. And I have shot it at 25, 50 and 80 yards. I have also performed penetration tests and found that it penetrates deeper than lead--- 3" for lead, to 5" for ITX in my tests--all other things being equal.

Its not lead, that is for sure! Its harder. I like lead better and always will, for traditional muzzleloading. Lead is what these old guns are designed to shoot...

BUT... if my only choice is to leave my muzzleloader at home sitting on the rack, or use ITX and be able to hunt with my ML? I will choose to use whatever I can that will work safely to achieve that. And ITX does work, and so far as I can tell, it has been 100% safe for my rifle and smoothbore.

I cannot guarantee the same results for anyone else.  I totally understand the concern... If I were a competition target shooter, I would be very careful what I put down my prized rifle. But I am just a plinker and a hunter of average skill... My guns are nice but only average too...  I love em! and I would not pour rock down the barrels...

(Note: I have used ITX in a Rice rifled barrel, a borrowed rifle with a Colerain barrel, and my Longhammock smoothbore... None of these exhibit any abuse or abnormal wear. I actually consulted with Rice before trying ITX in their barrels and Jason felt that it would not pose any problem)

I do not think ITX is the "magic bean," but I think it is something that does work in ML hunting applications where lead is not allowed. I am going to be using ITX shot & roundball this year exclusively, so I will check in when I learn more.

Ken

[Daryl]

A smaller ball, ie: .480" would have been OK as it could have been patched in protective cover. The larger ones would not fit into a barrel if slightly cocked as they were then large than the bore.

If they come out with a smaller ball for the .50's as suggested, I will be more than happy to endorse them - for whatever value THAT might possess - HA!.

[northmn]

The band for a round ball ML load ,to me, would be a PITA as it alignment  would seem to be crictical for loading and accuracy.   In shot they claim the band makes the terminal effects more effective.  While I have not taken one apart I believe that is what is claimed in Federal Black Cloud ammo It is the nature of any harder shot to pattern better.  If properly loaded steel can shoot very tight and some of the newer tungston shot loads are very tight.  Problem is that they are also harder to hit with.  They ate called scatterguns for a reason.

DP

[axelp]

Ever shoot a buffalo ball-et? It is cylindrical and does not load well sideways at all.... but it works pretty good and is easy enuff to load---adding a little more weight and heft to a ball. Other than hardness, is ITX with a thick cloth patch much different than a ball-et?

Historically speaking, how many times was hard pewter melted down and used as a lead substitute? ok, it is softer though, and much lighter so...

My experience, (and from what I read of Steve Chapman and Larry Pletcher) is that the ITX .487 ball loads with a thick ticking patch pretty well. Dirk Pregler, the late NMLRA rep for Germany tested ITX roundball and came to similar conclusions. As did another guy on a different forum I forget his name but he shoots an inline... (shhhhhh)

But again, different guns and different shooters, and I begrudge no one for passing on trying it out, Daryl, I understand your concern and respect your choice. I stopped trying the .490 size ITX for the same reason... even though it shot pretty well out of a borrowed 50 cal rifle...

re: ITX shot: TomBob does actually tout the ring on their shot as improving the wound channel, (but they admit that it is a result of the production process and was maybe not intentional)? The process is injection molding powdered metals and other media, and applying heat.

www.ballisticproducts.com has a whole book on modern loading data for ITX shot.

Yep, Federal claims the same improved wound channel thing with the saturn ring shot in "prairie cloud" ammo. Isn't traditional swan shot odd shaped?

There is a new shot coming out by (?) that is square-ish. They claim that it means that more shot can fit in a load that way.

K

[northmn]

Yep, Federal claims the same improved wound channel thing with the saturn ring shot in "prairie cloud" ammo. Isn't traditional swan shot odd shaped?

There is a new shot coming out by (?) that is square-ish. They claim that it means that more shot can fit in a load that way.

K

Because of a small fun debate I had a while back on original shot I found that shot sizes used to be designated as "duck shot"  "goose shot" and "swan shot" I sued to think that swan shot was named because of its shape and universally used but found the difference.  Drop shot shaped like teardrops was Used but they found that the Rupert method worked with fairly round shot as long as they used "poisened shot" or lead with arsenic in it.  Square shot used to be sold as a "scatter shot" as it may not pattern all that well.  Europeans were said to use it for scatter loads.

DP


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