16 ga Alcan plastic overpowder wads in a muzzleloader

[Dennis Glazener]

I have some Alcan 16ga plastic overpowder wads & plastic shot protector. Wondered if anyone here has ever tried them in a muzzleloader. I would suspect the plastic would foul the bore but what about using them for hunting? If I can get my fowler finished in time I have a chance to hunt Chukar with it. Otherwise I need to quickly order some 16 ga wads/cards.
Dennis

[Daryl]

Plastic, if unprotected form the BP flame, wil melt onto your bore. Some guys have had difficulty with this, even when using fiber wads between.

Plastic wads can tighten patterns sometimes considerably.

Dennis, I'd use a 16 bore fiber wad - the 1/2" thick donna-conna cushion wad, between the powder and plastic wad, then not worry.  I think that perhaps the 1/8" hard wad isn't enough.  A thin "B" or "BB" wad over the shot would finish the charge.  (used to be called "BB" wad for the overshot wad, but that's changed, I guess)

[P.W.Berkuta]

Let's see -- you have a 16 gauge muzzleloader --- some Alcan 16 gauge plastic overpowder wads and shot protectors - correct? Now if those Alcan 16 gauge plastic overpowder wads and shot protectors are made to fit INSIDE a 16 gauge shot shell then they would be too small in diameter to properly seal a 16 gauge muzzleloader's bore -- or am I missing something here - just thinking out loud??

[Feltwad]

Never use plastic wads in any  black powder gun they  leave a plastic skin in the bore  which in turn causes barrel ripple .This can ruin a gun my advice is dig a hole and bury them  horrible things.
Feltwad

[BrownBear]

I've used them in 12, but not 16.  As long as you use a lubed fiber base wad under them, there's zero plastic fouling in the bore. 

[Dennis Glazener]

Let's see -- you have a 16 gauge muzzleloader --- some Alcan 16 gauge plastic overpowder wads and shot protectors - correct? Now if those Alcan 16 gauge plastic overpowder wads and shot protectors are made to fit INSIDE a 16 gauge shot shell then they would be too small in diameter to properly seal a 16 gauge muzzleloader's bore -- or am I missing something here - just thinking out loud??

I just checked and they fit the bore with a perfect force fit.

Daryl, I have some Federal .135" overpowder card wads and some Alcan .200 nitro cards would one of these work over the powder with the Alcan plastic overpowder cups?

Dennis

[BrownBear]

Let's see -- you have a 16 gauge muzzleloader --- some Alcan 16 gauge plastic overpowder wads and shot protectors - correct? Now if those Alcan 16 gauge plastic overpowder wads and shot protectors are made to fit INSIDE a 16 gauge shot shell then they would be too small in diameter to properly seal a 16 gauge muzzleloader's bore -- or am I missing something here - just thinking out loud??

I just checked and they fit the bore with a perfect force fit.

Daryl, I have some Federal .135" overpowder card wads and some Alcan .200 nitro cards would one of these work over the powder with the Alcan plastic overpowder cups?

Dennis

In fact, they're bore size because shotshell chambers are larger than the bore, in order to be able to launch bore-size components.

As for lubing, I lube nitro cards all the time for use as base wads in my muzzleloaders.  I like a blend of 7 parts olive oil to 1 part beeswax, heated in the microwave to liquid.  Drop in the nitro cards and let them soak till they sink- as quick as 10 seconds for 20 gauge and around 20 seconds for 12 gauge.  I'd expect 16 gauge to edge toward 20 seconds.

Once they sink, fish them out and lay them on waxed paper to dry.  A certain amount will shave off the sides when seating in the bore, but plenty is left to lube the bore on the way down, seal the charge and protect the shot (or plastic wad) from hot gases.  Pretty darned handy.  

I've never used that blend in ambient temps over 50 degrees F, but even at room temp it's firm.  It will melt with body temp, though.  If it's too soft for your temps, you might try 3:1 first before going any higher. A little of the beeswax goes along ways.

[Scott Bumpus]

Several attempts at using plastic wads in bp guns all ended up with plastic fouling in the bore that was hard to get out. 

[Daryl]

I had the same thing in my 12 bore ctg. gun, until I used a heavy overpowder wad - then the plastic fouing wasn't too bad - but a breech loader is way easier to clean of plastic than a muzzleloader would be, and I didn't have to load over the fouling, just keep shooting.  I recall using one of those wound 'stainelss' steel brushes to remove it. No- it isn't scratch the bores of my 1900 double. Whitworth Fluid Steel tubes.

I'd tend to heed Feltwad's warning for use in the ML due to the difficulty of cleaning it out, but perhaps the lubed base wad that brownbear uses, does make a BIG differenceliminate the plastic fouling.  When compressed by the rising gas pressure behind, the lubed base wad certainly would press the lube hard against the side of the bore on the way out, thereby, perhaps preventing plastic adhering to the bore's walls.  I'd want to make sure I had a @!*% good seal.  I would tend toward using just the shot-cup of the plastic wad rather than the whole thing, I think, cutting off the collapsing and base portion. The less plastic the better, I would think.

[BrownBear]

I'm guessing that the "effect" from the lube starts with the first pass of a tight lubed wad as you load before the first firing, followed by subsequent "re-greasing" when the shot is fired.  I've never been bothered by plastic fouling with this approach, but get it every single time I try plain plastic wads without the lube.  I don't like the plastic wads, but when pushed to extremes have resorted to them.

BTW- My early testing pointed to the WAA red wad as producing the least fouling when fired without the lubed base.  It still happens, but nowhere near enough to interrupt a day of shooting.

[northmn]

Personally I would buy a bag of thick overpowder card wads.  They are relatively inexpensive and one can split off a layer of one for an overshot wad.  If you read Starr's recommendation a couple of card wads are all taht is needed anyway.  We are still thinking modern production stuff.  A wadded up newspaper piece under your Alcan wads would likely work also, but you still a overshot wad.  I have used wadded tissue paper for overshot.  You just need to pack the makeshift wads to kind of pack them in.  I should really get out and start patterning because I am kind of developing a theory that these heavy card wads may be what causing the donuts, that some of these makeshift wads like wasps nest and newpaper may have less of an impact on the rear of the shot charge.  They tend to confetti out the end muzzle when shot. 

DP

[greybeard]

OK ! This was my procedure when my main fowler was a W. J. King Eng double 16 .Ga.
export grade.  Super tight hard card over powder, followed by a 16 ga fiber wad from a tin of soapy water,
followed by a blue Remington wad with the bottom part cut off (cup only) , and a thin over shot card.
   My load was 2 1/2 drams ffg. 1oz 7 1/2 shot and went 24 out of 25 at the Malahat Maurauders annual rondevous against 10 ga stuffed with 2oz of shot and enough powder to break a mainspring . Pattern breaks clays . not power.  With my load there was no cleaning as it shot itsself clean with every shot and clean up at the end of a shoot was a breeze. When they changed to 10 shots in the event I quit shooting it . Not worth the effort to only have one 10 shot event for the whole weekend. The event I am refering to was not hard as it was a Tyrus thrower on open area so the shooter was placed off to one side instead of behind the trap so was not hard to get the clays at about 25 yards. Thats my experience for what it's worth.   Cheers    Bob

[Dennis Glazener]

I would tend toward using just the shot-cup of the plastic wad rather than the whole thing, I think, cutting off the collapsing and base portion. The less plastic the better, I would think.

The plastic wads that I have are not like the AAA Winchester. These are just the cups, no compression rings or shot protection.

The plastic shot protection comes in 5 shot strips and consist of a round (16 ga size) bottom with two attached plastic side pieces attached. The idea is to push the round bottom protection in first then the two side pieces form a protective cup for the shot. I didn't think I would use them since I am concerned about the plastic building up in the bore. But I would like to try the small plastic over powder cups. It looks to me like they would work well.
Dennis

[Daryl]

Black powder flame and plastic don't go together, Dennis.  The flame, if allowed to play with the plastic, will melt it.

[Dennis Glazener]

Oh I understand that, would expect to put something between the powder and the wad i.e. cards/wads etc. I guess when I finish this fowler, hopefully in a couple of weeks, I will experiment with them a little.
Dennis

[BrownBear]

As long as you're experimenting, here's one I'm playing with.  So far it has worked at least as well as plastic shot cups.  Cut some 3" rounds of ticking and lube them in a 7:1 blend of olive oil:beeswax.  Start your chosen base wad down the bore, then seat one of these deep enough to hold your shot charge and function as a patch.  Top with an overshot card and seat the works.  That 3" patch is plenty big for 1 3/8 oz of shot in a 12 gauge, but I'd expect to use a little larger for more shot.

In my testing, results are at least as tight as plastic shot cups, but falling in the range between Improved and Modified at 30 yards.  You'd have to go to a jug choke to do better, unless there's something I'm missing in my combos so far.  

More important, the lubed patch is giving me really smooth patterns with even distribution and clean edges.  There's no tendency for a tight core, yet the edges don't "melt away" as happens with bare shot in a bore.  I use the fringe of my patterns a lot on snowshoe hare, so the clean edge is especially welcome.

As a fine tuning of the process, I made a "seater" that's hollow.  It's long enough to seat the patch to exactly the right depth in a single push.  Then I pour the shot and withdraw the seater.  Pretty slick, though I know of no historic precedent for any part of all this.  BTW- I opened up the top of the seater to form a funnel for ease of hitting the undersize hole when pouring shot.

[arcticap]

I've experimented with placing combinations of compressed balls of newspaper and extra large cotton balls both over and under a plastic wad with heavy shot loads in 12 ga. and 28 ga. percussion shotguns.
The plastic wads didn't noticeably melt at all even when loaded with maximum charges of Pyrodex RS and the patterns were much tighter than without the plastic wads. The patterns that resulted were as if the amount of choke were increased by 1/2 to 1 full size.

[Daryl]

BrownBear- perhaps the best 'solution' of all.  Good work!  Al it takes is thinking outside, or perhaps in this case, more deeply into the box.

[Curtis]

BrownBear, your patch method you are experimenting with sounds very much worth trying!  Please give some more details about the construction of your "seater".  I would like to make myself one.

I am also curious if you use any over powder card at all (under the 3" patch material).

[BrownBear]

I'll try to get some pics up today.

So far I've been using a lubed (7:1 olive oil:beeswax) .125" nitro card under the patch.  I'm guilty of not experimenting further with the base wad because it's working fine.

[BrownBear]

As promised, here's the photos of my hollow starter for using ticking "shot cups."



This is a view of the business end.  The whole thing is roughly 3" long and an inch in diameter.  I hand held a 5/16" drill to bore the hole in a 1" dowel, then whittled the rest.  A guy with a lathe could make it in about 2 minutes, but it took me 2 hours of rasping and sanding.


Here's the top, showing the "funnel" I hogged out to make it easier to feed from the flask.


I stopped seating halfway down for the sake of the photo.  Thumb in the base wad, roughly center the patch, then shove it home.  Really easy.


The shot poured.  That's 1 3/8 oz of #6, more than I usually shoot.  Without the funnel the hollow starter would have to be a little longer to allow for the thickness of the tube within the patch.  


Withdraw the starter and you're ready to thumb on the overshot card and seat the works down onto the powder.


Here's my whole setup. Basically all I did was add a starter which happens to have a hole through it.  Compare the 3" patch with my shot flask.  That little flask holds just over a pound of shot!  Plenty for 10 shots, and if I need more shots than that I better practice more before hunting.  I'm short on inspiration for carrying those lubed patches so far.  At the moment I'm using a historically correct ziploc bag.

Sorry, I don't have any pattern photos.  The weather is so rotten out there right now, it'll be a few days before I try for them!  

Edit-  For some reason this doesn't seem to want to pick up my photos, even though they're hosted on PhotoBucket and I used img codes as usual when composing.   Or could it be my slow connection just hasn't displayed them yet.  Moderators?

[VAshooter]

I used a plastic wad with shot cup in my 12 Ga double barrel once . Not one time but one day. We had a bunch of people shooting hand thrown clays and it worked great all day. Easy to load and accurate to fire.

I got home and started to clean the shotgun and found a birds nest of shredded plastic in the bottom of each barrel. It really scared me cause I thought a spark could have been laying down there in all that shredded plastic that would have caused a bad day for whoever was loading.

I went back to fiber wads.

VAshooter

[Curtis]

BrownBear,  your images were in the text but somehow there was some extra code in there too.  Thanks for posting the images!

Here are BrownBears photos and accompanying comments:



This is a view of the business end.  The whole thing is roughly 3" long and an inch in diameter.  I hand held a 5/16" drill to bore the hole in a 1" dowel, then whittled the rest.  A guy with a lathe could make it in about 2 minutes, but it took me 2 hours of rasping and sanding.



Here's the top, showing the "funnel" I hogged out to make it easier to feed from the flask.



I stopped seating halfway down for the sake of the photo.  Thumb in the base wad, roughly center the patch, then shove it home.  Really easy.



The shot poured.  That's 1 3/8 oz of #6, more than I usually shoot.  Without the funnel the hollow starter would have to be a little longer to allow for the thickness of the tube within the patch.  



Withdraw the starter and you're ready to thumb on the overshot card and seat the works down onto the powder.



Here's my whole setup. Basically all I did was add a starter which happens to have a hole through it.  Compare the 3" patch with my shot flask.  That little flask holds just over a pound of shot!  Plenty for 10 shots, and if I need more shots than that I better practice more before hunting.  I'm short on inspiration for carrying those lubed patches so far.  At the moment I'm using a historically correct ziploc bag.

[BrownBear]

Thanks for the leg up, SquirrelHeart.  I don't know where the extra code came from, but I'll figure it out!

Come to think of it, I was using the little picture frame tag from here on the comment window, then inserting the links from PhotoBucket.  I may want to skip the tag and drop in the PB links.  Will try that next time.

One thing more on the patches, as long as I'm signed on.  Dunking the patches in melted lube results in obviously too much lube.  For these I alternated the dunked patches with dry ones in a ziploc, then nuked them a little. 

From the amount of excess that skweegies off when seating the patches, I could probably get away with putting two dry patches between each dunker.  One thing, though....  There's sure no concern for hard fouling, even as you end up with lube on everything else while loading!