Author Topic: Petroleum products??  (Read 17634 times)

Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1746
    • Black Powder Mag
Petroleum products??
« on: January 25, 2011, 01:53:29 PM »
Since I began  shooting black powder years ago, I have been puzzled by the advice about not using petroleum based products in muzzleloaders.  The reason given was that an asphalt-like residue would form in the barrel.  I've often wondered if this was another myth handed down with no one knowing why, or if it was generally accepted for good reason.

I also remember that Penn crude oil was paraffin based, while Texas crude was asphalt based.  Is this where the advice comes from?  Does than mean that Penn State Motor oil would be OK but not Texaco?  Has anybody experimented, comparing a paraffin vs asphalt based crude oil product?  Just curious.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline The Original Griz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 444
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2011, 02:34:14 PM »
I was always told the same thing except that it was explained that the petroleum would let a residue that could contaminate the powder... beats me, I really never paid much attention to it. It is very hard to find any rust inhibitor that does not have some type of petroleum distillates in it.
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
www.timsannerpowderhorns.com

Offline BrentD

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 199
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2011, 03:30:52 PM »
I used to believe that until I actually tried it.  It's a myth so far as I'm concerned. 

Pvt. Lon Grifle

  • Guest
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2011, 03:43:35 PM »
I believe that the popular, well-regarded Hoppes # 9 + may contain up to 5% kerosene (from MSDS).  Lon

Offline Majorjoel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3134
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2011, 04:44:51 PM »
"
"I also remember that Penn crude oil was paraffin based, while Texas crude was asphalt based"        I was told that Penn crude was paraffin based and Texas crude was   MINERAL OIL BASED. That is why I always used Tex products in my vehicles. In cold weather the paraffin wax solidifies and takes warm up time to do any lubrication. These are merely opinion based on my part from what an old friend and master mechanic taught me years ago. Any knowledgeable info on this is most welcome! I have always used RIG grease in my muzzleloaders which I picked up from Ned Roberts fine book, "The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle".  Roberts recommended RIG for the safe and long lasting rust prevention properties in the bores of his rifles. I've never had any fowling issues or unusual build up in any of my ml's.
Joel Hall

Offline Don Getz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6853
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2011, 04:48:59 PM »
I have always followed up my cleaning of a barrel with "Accra-guard", a rather thick oil, bought it at Friendship.   I think Jim
Chambers sells it.   I have never found anything better than oil to retard rust.   I do run a dry patch down the bore before I shoot my rifle again..............Don

Mike R

  • Guest
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2011, 05:49:59 PM »
I have used petroleum based oils for lube and rust protection in the past, although I use less now--I believe the old saying was based on petroleum as a patch lube [not recommended] not necessarily as a bore protector.  When I used pet/oils in the bore I always wiped it out before shooting.  At present I coat the bores with mink oil. 

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2011, 06:11:01 PM »
Since taking up BP shooting in 1973, I've had the understanding the reason for no petrolium products is that petrolium products will not mix with bp fouling to soften it.  I have never heard of this turning to asphault or any other problem, just that petrolium does not mix - therefore do not use it as it doesn't work- ie: for lube.

I have used BreakFree BLC and other products for an after clean and dry preservative in the past, but now it's WD40 and that's it - it works for me- and Taylor and LB and everyone else in the club here.

The only pretrolium product that works with BP fouling that I know of, is Vaseline when mixed with melted BeesWax as a bullet lube - 60:40 - it works - don't know why - but the stuff I mixed up is just as good as the other BP lubes I tried, SPG or Lyman's BPGold - in both of my rifles - a .45/60 Sharps and a .50 Alaskan chambered Rolling Block.  Your milage might vary.

I have adhered to the no-petrolium products as noted above, and this has worked perfectly for me - no asphault - must work.

Motor oil is a very poor rust preventer as far as I know as engine blocks will rust underneath a coating of the stuff. Now, that might be due to used oil having corrosives, by-products of combustion in them - perhaps fresh oil is OK- doubt it.

Most of the better motor oils today are partical synthetics & total synthetics (even if they don't say so) - good motor oils have synthetic additives to withstand the engine temps produced today, especially in bearing races, in the heads. Petrolium oils turn to asphault at something like 300F to 310F - normal temps in the bearing races can easily ecceed those temps - therefore synthetics or synthetic additives are required.  I like Amsoil myself.  Been using their products it since 1977 and love 'em - change oil once a year and never burn oil - even at over 200,000 miles. I don't use them for patch lube or an after-oil - don't need them, WD40 works for me.

northmn

  • Guest
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 08:49:17 PM »
I think a lot of the bias is that Alox the bullet lube is petroleum based.  It does really screw up a Black powder cartridge bullet and cause a heavy fouling at the end of the muzzle.   I found this out in my 45-70.  I read one time that Vaseline has properties that do not cause the heavy fouling, and I have used paraffin as a lube thickener for cartridge loads.  The Asphalt theory would have to be explained to me by a chemist as I thought asphalt was a byproduct of oil refinement and not a base.  There is also the theory with Bore Butter that if used you do not need to use petroleum based oils ever in a ML.  I have tried lubing with Bore Butter after shooting with mixed results.  I think the whole theory behind Bore Butters help sell Bore Butter.  Mostly my complaint about preserving with oils is that you have to clean them out to prevent powder contamination before shooting.  The fouling shot is often a "defouling" shot as I find it best to fire off a fouling shot then thouroughly wipe out the bore before loading.

Offline Gene Carrell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2011, 09:31:37 PM »
I am told that many of the pistol shooters at Friendship are using a mixture of 50% Mobil 1 and  50% WD 40 as a patch lube and are being very successful with  it. WD is petro based isn't it?  I tried it once in a 32cal rifle and found it to be unremarkable, but the only thing that I did not care for  is that the loading rod got so slick that I had  to wipe it before I could get a ball seated.
Gene

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5310
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 09:33:45 PM »
I use Hoppes #9 BP for patch lube and WD40 and Barricade for rust prevention.  I've also used various standard gun oils with no problem.  I'd have to say it's more of a myth than anything else.  I don't shoot with an oily bore nor do I use petro oils as patch lube.  Ive also never seen this buildup occur.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline valongrifles

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2011, 09:57:40 PM »
I can't say it will work for everyone, but, I have used BreakFree for years, inside and out. Apply it and let set overnight and wipe it out/down. I use it on my browned barrel and it works great. Clean the barrel and apply it in the bore with a patch and run two throught it in the AM and clean around vent hole.  Never have experienced rust on anything I used it on; lock, furniture and barrel.

Dave Faletti

  • Guest
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 10:37:12 PM »
Heavier petroleum oils don't vaporize or burn very easily. Powder fouling just insulates what doesn't burn and makes it harder for all of it to burn. I went to lighter weight/less viscous oils  for bore preservation because it cleaned out easier and left a thinner film.  If I was to leave something for a long time without inspection I would rather have a heavy oil or grease.

I suspect most patch lubes boil or burn at lower temperatures. Durable enough but not too much so.

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2011, 01:45:34 AM »

WD40 is supposed to be based on fish oil, not a petrolium & is biodegradable.

I have tried, in the past, petrolium based oils ie a cheap petrolium motor oil as a patch lube to prove a point - well proved - buildup of fouling and a mess.

Alox lubes do not mix with, nor soften BP fouling. Alox is not a BP lube. SPG, Beeswax/Vaseline mix, Beeswax/Olive Oil mix and Lyman's Black Powder Gold, are. VBeeswax/Olive oil did not shoot as well as Beeswx/Vaseline, which was great!



Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9749
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2011, 01:59:44 AM »
There have been horror stories for a long time about petroleum. Some forms of petroleum seem to cause more problems than others.
I would not use petroleum for patch lube at least not in liquid from.
I think the asphalt problem is the result of improper cleaning. Soaking the fouling with petroleum oil then baking it with subsequent firings. SPG recently debreeched a rifle he had purchased and found that the cupped breech was full of a very hard black substance.

I think that using petroleum as patch lube will cumulatively build up fouling in the same manner by slowly building up and baking the fouling that is repeatedly wetted by petroleum patch lubes and then "cooked" by succeeding shots.
This is my theory anyway.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

dickert54cal

  • Guest
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2011, 04:06:15 AM »
FormulationWD-40's formula is a trade secret. The product is not patented to avoid completely disclosing its ingredients.[2] WD-40's main ingredients, according to U.S. Material Safety Data Sheet information, are:

50%: Stoddard solvent (i.e., mineral spirits primarily hexane, somewhat similar to kerosene)
25%: Liquefied petroleum gas (presumably as a propellant; carbon dioxide is now used instead to reduce WD-40's considerable flammability)
15+%: Mineral oil (light lubricating oil)
10-%: Inert ingredients
The German version of the mandatory EU safety sheet lists the following safety-relevant ingredients:

60-80%: Heavy Naphtha (petroleum product), hydrogen treated
1-5%: Carbon dioxide
It further lists flammability and effects to the human skin when repeatedly exposed to WD-40 as risks when using WD-40. Nitrile rubber gloves and safety glasses should be used. Water is unsuitable for extinguishing burning WD-40.

There is a popular urban legend that the key ingredient in WD-40 is fish oil.[3] However, the WD-40 web site states that it is a petroleum based product. [4]

dickert54cal

  • Guest
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2011, 04:09:02 AM »
I have always followed up my cleaning of a barrel with "Accra-guard", a rather thick oil, bought it at Friendship.   I think Jim
Chambers sells it.   I have never found anything better than oil to retard rust.   I do run a dry patch down the bore before I shoot my rifle again..............Don

Don after you suggested I try the stuff, the last 2-3 years I too have had good results with the Chambers olis---I use the lighter oil on the lock and it too works great!

Dave Faletti

  • Guest
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2011, 04:21:02 AM »
 Looks like someone else looked up WD40 while I was typing.   ;D
One thought on WD40 though.

Mineral oil is not a specific molecule but a series of them.  WD40 may have just the lighter ones.    Motor oil has a number of other compounds in addition to the base oil which is probably quite a bit heavier.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 04:24:56 AM by Dave Faletti »

dickert54cal

  • Guest
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2011, 05:39:30 AM »
LOL------------By the way Im thinking about switching to the lighter oil (almost like machine oil) for both the lock and barrel since storage is but a month or so at most since I try to get out and shoot??????????

northmn

  • Guest
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2011, 08:06:08 PM »
I was told once how great carburator cleaner was to clean ML's.  I tried it in a BP 45-70 as it did not seem to work.  It did not, testing it in the breech loader I would have had to use mechanical means to get the crud out that it left.  Since then I use that system to test some folks ideas.  Seems like some variations of petroleum work some do not.

DP

Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1746
    • Black Powder Mag
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2011, 09:04:38 PM »
. . . . . Seems like some variations of petroleum work some do not.
DP

This matches up with something Bill Knight told me.  In the opening question I mentioned paraffin and asphalt based.  Bill called them " parraffinic or naphthenic."

The sulfur in BP get together with naphthenic based products you get asphalt.  Parraffinic based products do not do this.  (This is my greatly simplified version of Bill's explanation.) 

My gut says that if the folks that make lubes used the paraffinic type, we'd all be happy campers.  There may be a reason this isn't done, but when you say, "Seems like some variations of petroleum work some do not."- I think you have it worked out.  And this may be the reason.

Regards,
Pletch


Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9749
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2011, 09:54:39 PM »
. . . . . Seems like some variations of petroleum work some do not.
DP

This matches up with something Bill Knight told me.  In the opening question I mentioned paraffin and asphalt based.  Bill called them " parraffinic or naphthenic."

The sulfur in BP get together with naphthenic based products you get asphalt.  Parraffinic based products do not do this.  (This is my greatly simplified version of Bill's explanation.) 

My gut says that if the folks that make lubes used the paraffinic type, we'd all be happy campers.  There may be a reason this isn't done, but when you say, "Seems like some variations of petroleum work some do not."- I think you have it worked out.  And this may be the reason.

Regards,
Pletch




I was trying to remember this. It would have taken me all day to find it in my stack of stuff from Bill.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

VAshooter

  • Guest
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2011, 12:09:50 AM »
I have been shooting muzzle loading rifles since 1955 and back then everyone I new used sperm oil to lubricate and to protect muzzle loading barrels. I was told that the natural sperm oil soaked into the metal and seasoned and protected the barrel from corrosion. They said not to use stuff like Hoppy's or other commercial gun cleaners that were petrochemical based because they would wash the sperm oil out of the barrel leaving it unprotected.

If I could find someone going to Japan I would try to get them to bring me back some sperm oil. We are the only people who can't get it. As it is, I'm using Ballistol  but it just don't smell the same.

VAshooter

Offline Scout

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
  • Mongrel Rifle School of North Florida
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2011, 12:11:09 AM »
Boy, am I confused ! ???

However I also was told years ago NOT to use ANYTHING petroleum based.
She ain't Purdy but she shoots real good !

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3020
Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2011, 12:18:51 AM »
I was told several years ago that the Pennsylvania oil brands had all been bought up by Texas oil firms and that both Pennsoil and Quakerstate are no longer made from the parafin Pennsyvlania oils.  I know there are darned few Pennsylvania wells producing oil anymore, most are capped off.  Lots of drilling going on but that is for natural gas.  Oil City, PA refineries are no longer working except for a small specialty oil one - at least that was the condition last time I was there about 5 years ago.  I live in AZ now and no longer have  farm near Titusville so maybe the locals can tell us better.