Author Topic: Petroleum products??  (Read 17635 times)

Daryl

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2011, 06:31:14 AM »
Boy, am I confused ! ???

However I also was told years ago NOT to use ANYTHING petroleum based.



Petrolium based products are for preservation - NOT for shooting - & NOT for cleaning - muzzleloaders.  You can, however, use petrolium based lubes and solvents for cleaning and preserving modern smokeless powder guns.  This brings up a point that VA shooter brought up - however, in 1955 thorugh the 60's, ALL of the solvents on the market were designed for smokeless powders - there were NONE for black powder.

Hoppe's #9, the modern gun solvent makes a very good preserver due to the oil that's in it. Some BR shooters use it just for a preserver, for the oil in it. It is a lousy smokeless powder solvent in comparrison to others today.  it was great in 1970- it no longer is useful except perhaps for the oil in it as a preservative for your gun.

Hoppe's #9 Plus might be good for that as well, I don't know - it does have water in it.  Hoppe's #9 Plus is NOT Hoppe's #9.  One is for smokeless powder, one is for black powder. #9 plus is a GREAT patch lube for target shooting and Taylor's test showed no rust after a week of being loaded in a test barrel, left outside and brought inside each day for the condensation 'acid' test. 

Something else brought up - parafin/beeswax mix was a lousy lube in my VERY accurate BP ctg. gun. Vaseline/beeswax was wonderful. Olive OIl/Beeswax also sucked, Vaseline/Beeswax was wonderful - Oh yeah, already said that. SPG and Lyman's BP Gold were also good - about as good as Beeswax/Vasline.

Now, I'll lay odds, with SPG or Lyman's lube sticks, melted in a double boiler, and mixed with Vaseline, a very good summer lube could be made- however spit or alcohol/water/oil works just as well and is cheaper, and easier & less greasy to handle.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2011, 09:47:24 AM »
It is true that some crude oils, the stuff as it comes out of the ground, are paraffinic and some are asphaltic.  The refinery process separates these heavier hydrocarbon molecules from the lube oils, though.  Refined motor oil is pretty much the same, whether it is made from a parrafinic crude or an asphaltic crude.  The basics of refining crude oil is pretty much the same as distilling alcohol.  Refining crude oil separates the hydrocarbon molecules by size or weight by vaporizing them then condensing them at different temperatures and pressures.  This is accomplished in the tall towers you see in a refinery. Other parts of some refineries crack heavy hydrocarbon molecules into smaller molecules--the cracker.  They may also have catalyst systems that combine small molecules into larger molecules.  The object being to make as much gasoline, kerosene, and diesel as possible from a given crude as these are the most valuable products.

The primary difference in different brands of (petroleum based) motor oils are the additives.  The same can be said for gasoline.  The asphaltic molecules removed during the refining process are used to make asphalt.  Paraffin is used in everything from medicine to candles.

When I worked in the oil and gas business in Indonesia, all of their crudes were paraffinic.  Even though they were a major oil producer at the time, they had to import all of their asphalt to build roads since they couldn't get it from their own crude.

The only compound found in BP that is soluble in a petroleum product is sulfur.  That's why they don't make a good BP cleaner or lube.  But since all one needs as a rust preventer is a thin film of oil on the metal, a thin petroleum based oil shouldn't be a significant problem with BP.  The key is to apply only a thin film so there is no excess to mix with the BP or its combustion products.
Phil Meek

Dave Faletti

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2011, 12:13:51 PM »
I think Mtn Meek has explained petroleum best so far.  Crude oil contains hydrocarbons from methane to heavier than asphalt.  The percentages of the different types and other compounds like those containing sulfur vary which is why different crude oil deposits get different names and terms.   Wikipedia has a decent section on Naptha, asphalt, mineral oil and paraffin.

What did Knight view as a Naptha product?  With  Naptha being lighter than kerosene it isn't going to work as a lube and why clean with it?
 

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2011, 05:50:15 PM »
In the mid-1980's I was working on this using some petroleum product books out of the research library at work.  The classification of crude oil stocks was an over simplification.

Basically.  Petroleum waxes will not form asphalt.  Petroleum oils will.

The original problem presented to me was a bunch of BP ml rifles being brought back to several gunshops with projectiles stuck in the bore off the powder charge.  These barrels had to be debreached and the stuck projectiles had to be driven back out of the muzzle with hammers and bars.

The offending lubes in this were two brands that were simply repackaged machinery grease.  Two lubes on the market that did not do this were simply repackaged Chap Stick.  Which is a petrolatum wax base.

So the one lube supplier took my information and bent it to suit their needs.  This was the start of the "All Natural", "Non-Petroleum" nonsense.

The issue is wax versus oil.

After that work I took on the task of checking new lubes for a ML gunshop.  I place some of the lube in a metal jar lid.  Fire up the propane torch.  Heat the lube and get it burning.  Watch how much soot comes of the flame.  Then when it is totally consumed I look at the residue left in the lid.  Ash?  Oily?  Asphalt-like?


E. Ogre

jeager58

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2011, 07:49:06 PM »
after I clean my barrels with dawn dish soap and hot water I always put some wd-40 on a patch and coat the inside of the barrel. It was developed by the air force to displace water and keep their gauges from freezing at high altitudes. they had 39 formulas that were unsuccessful . ( water displacement  formula 40  )   then I run a patch with a light machine oil down the barrel for storage, never had a problem so far
before I shoot again I run two patches down to delube the barrel and am ready to load and shoot

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2011, 01:28:07 AM »
after I clean my barrels with dawn dish soap and hot water I always put some wd-40 on a patch and coat the inside of the barrel. It was developed by the air force to displace water and keep their gauges from freezing at high altitudes. they had 39 formulas that were unsuccessful . ( water displacement  formula 40  )   then I run a patch with a light machine oil down the barrel for storage, never had a problem so far
before I shoot again I run two patches down to delube the barrel and am ready to load and shoot

If you look at the solvent/diluent used in WD 40 you are looking at a very good tar removal solvent.

E. Ogre

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2011, 04:35:40 AM »
We're pretty close, Phil. 

Camped at a primitive doin's I didn't have hot or even warm water once and no soap so just cleaned with tap water then WD40 and finally w/ LPS3.  Worked just the same as when I used hot water and detergent at home and been doing it that way for the last 30+ years.
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Daryl

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2011, 06:42:02 PM »
Whatever works for you is best.

After the WD40 flush in  DRIED barrels, THEN patched out, that patch comes out merely wet from the WD40 - no grey streaks, no black, no brown, no discolouration at all.  I clean with cold water, no soap of any kind.  Run a patch down a week or 6 months later before going out shooting and it comes out dry, without any marks - perfectly clean.  I store guns muzzle down.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 06:42:23 PM by Daryl »

Pvt. Lon Grifle

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2011, 09:02:44 PM »
Aha ! Perhaps the truth is  reasoned out !   

Use water/minimalist other solvent additions to clean, use metal protectant as in WD-40,or your favorite,  to preserve.   

 Lon

Daryl

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2011, 02:03:41 AM »
Lon - those were Holland and Holland's (long-time English gun maker) instructions on cleaning 'their' guns, modern or antique, which had been shot with black powder & you are right- about as simple as can be.
 
Cold water only,  then dry, then flush with WD40 to blast out any moisture from any place it might be hiding, then patch that out and use a quality preservative if need be.

We find here in BC, nothing else is needed.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2011, 05:39:36 AM »
Lon - those were Holland and Holland's (long-time English gun maker) instructions on cleaning 'their' guns, modern or antique, which had been shot with black powder & you are right- about as simple as can be.
 
Cold water only,  then dry, then flush with WD40 to blast out any moisture from any place it might be hiding, then patch that out and use a quality preservative if need be.

We find here in BC, nothing else is needed.

Daryl,

The funny part of this is that 99.99% of the fouling left by black powder in the bore of the gun is in fact water-soluble.  Mainly potassium carbonate and some potassium sulfate.  Ratio between the two may vary a bit depending on powders used, etc.  The only thing in the fouling not soluble in water is the graphite that went through the powder combustion unaffected.  Graphite does not burn until you get the gas temperatures up around 2000 degrees which would be very rare in the gun.

What does come into play here is the physical form of the fouling.  Depending on a bunch of factors you can have the powder combustion residue as a fine powder distributed over bore surfaces or as a tarry mass and sometimes even a hard glass-like mass.  Depends on maximum gas temperatures reached in the gases behind the projectile.
This does not change the solubility of the residue, simply the rate at which it dissolves in the water in a bore swab or bore flush.  As you go from fine dust with a huge amount of surface area for the water to work on and then the tarry state and fi8nally a glass-like state it simply slows down the process of dissolving the residue with water simply as a function of a great reduction in surface area.

I always laugh when I read where some guy claims he does not clean BP bores with water.  Always uses a solvent like Moose Milk.  In most cases the so-called Moose Milk is 90 to 95% water with a water miscible oil added.  And please note I said water miscible, NOT water soluble.


E. Ogre

Dave Faletti

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2011, 08:21:55 AM »
Mad Monk.  Is stuff like moose milk an emulsion or does it contain water soluble "oil".  Is miscible the word you meant to use?  Just curious.  It doesn't change your main point.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2011, 04:59:15 PM »
Mad Monk.  Is stuff like moose milk an emulsion or does it contain water soluble "oil".  Is miscible the word you meant to use?  Just curious.  It doesn't change your main point.

In scientific circles oils are not water soluble.  They use the term miscible to indicate that an oil might disperse in water but not actually go into solution.  Some oils will require a bit of soap to act as an emulsifier to form an emulsion.

An example of a commercial "moose milk" is T/C Number 13 Bore Cleaner.
"Contains: Polydimethy-siloxane in an aqueous solution."
This polydimethy-siloxane is nothing but a silicone oil.   If it were truly soluble it would form a clear solution in the water.  The fact that it forms a "milky" mixture shows it to be water-miscible rather than water-soluble.

How these work is that when you use them as a bore cleaner the water will dissolve the black powder residue while the silicone oil forms a coating on the surface of the metal to prevent rusting.
This product is the same thing they use as the coolant/lubricant and metal protection in their machining operations.  The silicone oil that coats the metal gives enough rust protection to get the part to the next step in the process.  The protection is limited in effectiveness and duration.

E. Ogre

Dave Faletti

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2011, 10:01:18 PM »
 Mad Monk.   I am well aware of the definition of an oil and what the term "water soluble oil" is refering to.  Your usage of miscible is way off.  I was being nice and trying not to start an argument,

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2011, 01:49:19 AM »
Mad Monk.   I am well aware of the definition of an oil and what the term "water soluble oil" is refering to.  Your usage of miscible is way off.  I was being nice and trying not to start an argument,

Yep.  In hindsight miscible was the wrong term to use.

E. Ogre

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2011, 05:56:01 AM »
Years ago I was told the same thing about the petroleum so I did what one of the old timers told me to do. I plugged the vent and melted mutton tallow and filled the barrel full and propped it in the corner behind the wood stove for a while. The barrel seemed to clean up easier for along while after, but I havn't tried this for years. Someone gave me some bear oil the other day, any one ever tried that?

I havn"t found any thing better than plain old cold water for cleaning except when its real cold cleaning in the field.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2011, 11:04:46 PM »
Breakfree!  The U.S. Army's replacement for Rifle Bore Cleaner and Weapons Oil.  The Army calls it CLP- cleaner, lubricant, protective.  they use it on ever weapon from handgun to artillery.  I never use WD-40 as I've seen too much metal end up with a fine coat of rust using it. Just my experience.

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Online hanshi

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2011, 02:21:06 AM »
WD40 certainly isn't a good rust preventative in my experience though it's probably better than nothing.  Some claim great results with it.  I do use it but not as a rust preventative.  The very best I've found so far is Barricade.  It will prevent rust absolutely.
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Daryl

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Re: Petroleum products??
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2011, 07:57:35 PM »
On a hunting trip, I've used Rig for coating the underside of barrels, in the channels, etc.  The stored ML or modern gun on a hunting trip has rig everywhere - patched out of the bore then solvent cleaned and dried before shooting - ML barrels for me, last just fine in all conditions around here, with nothing but the WD40 that was used as the final cleaning, oiling - has for many years.

We - Taylor adn I, never get any rust in the bores of our guns.

If rust appears after cleaning, drying and WD40'ing, then perhaps you didn't get the barrel wasn't as clean as you thought.  I am wracking my brain trying to understand why someone would get rust, when we don't- not even a smidgen or a whisper or thought of rust.  This is the only thing I can think of - I'm just throwing this out there as a possibility.

 Perhaps the barrel should have been removed from the stock and cleaned by flushing water in and out until it was clean, then dried, then flushed with WD40, not just a damp WD 40 patch, but flushed with the stuff,THEN that is patched out to remove the excess, blasting WD40 10 to 14" out the vent with that first, second and perhaps only 4" with the thrid stroke of that patch - sometimes, not always, changeto a fresh patch for a final bore wipe, then wiped down with the wet one, then stored muzzle down.  THAT is pretty much how we do it and we get no rust - ever.

1 day or 10 days or 6 months later, a dry patch down the bore comes out either dry (if the carrier has evapourated) and clean, or wet and clean - no colour at all - absolutley no rust.

Lately the humidity has been in the 80% range - over the year, it averges about 50% - I'vestored ML guns for years - no rust - they were CLEAN before being stored, WD40's then stored.  They had been cleaned by emersion of the breech in a bucket of tap COLD water, water flushed in and out with actual hand and arm pressure on the rod - deliberate cleaning, I like to call it, not merely humoured, ie: patched out with the barrel on the stock. Cleaning the barrel with it still on the stock does not get them perfectly clean - imho- at least, not clean enough for me.  I use only WD40- I don't get rust.

I didn't get rust when I lived on the coast in the Vancouver BC area and I don't get rust living inland.  If the gun rusts, it is being wet somehow, or wasn't perfectly clean and that residual fouling is absorbing moisture somehow and causing rust.

With the number of guys here who don't take the barrels off their stocks for cleaning being very  high, perhaps that is why a super rust preventative is needed and normal oils that work elsewhere, just don't work.

By all means use whatever is necessary  - but I sincerely hope I've made some suggestions that help someone who is having trouble.

Method is everything.