round ball trajectories?

[jerrywh]

 Is there a source for round ball trajectories. I thought I had every black powder book there is but can't find one.  It seems to me one of the older black powder manuals had a trajectory table.

[BrownBear]

It's not comprehensive, but scroll down on this page as a starting point.

[BrownBear]

There are also lots of ballistics calculators on the web.  Hornady has one, and here is another example.  BC's for RB's are also available from multiple sources.

[Mike R]

The old original Lyman BP loading manual had trajectory info for many combos in the appendix in the back of the book.

[BrownBear]

I've got it, and forgot all about it.

If you can give me a ball diameter and velocity, I'll transcribe what it sezz.

[jerrywh]

535 rb---- 85 grs or 90 grs FFG geox velocity and drop from muzzle at 100 yds and 200 yds.

[T*O*F]

Jerry,
While the tables and ballistic programs are nice, they don't really reflect what your gun is doing.  Most of the tables were done years ago.  With all the changes in powder brands and consistency by powder makers, it is almost a necessity to actually shoot your gun with your load over a chronograph and then use a ballistic program to find your individual trajectory.  You asked for 100 and 200 yard drops and fps variations over 100 yards can make a big difference.

[BrownBear]

Not exact, but they're showing 1546fps for a .535 from  30-34" barrels over 90 grains of 3f.  They're showing 1685 ps from a 43" barrel and 90 grains of 3f.  Split the difference and ignore the 3f and you have somewhere around 1600fps.  That's handy only in that the ballistic table in the back is broken down to velocities to the nearest 100 fps.

All those provisos in place, they're showing 1307 ft-lbs for 1600fps at the muzzle, 980 fps and 490 ft-lbs at 100, and 741fps and 281 ft-lbs at 200.  Drop at 100 yards is 10 inches and drop at 200 is 56 inches.  Looking at those #'s, it's obvious that those are from bore height, without regard for sight height and sight-in distance.  Just for curiosity sake, 300 yards shows 586 fps, 175 ft-lbs, and a whopping 166 inches of drop.

[t.caster]

Can you factor drop/rise at 50yds for that load? That is what my hunting load is in a 42" barrel. I'm hitting about 3" high at 50 yds.

[BrownBear]

Probably need to use one of the ballistic calculators for that.  Sight height is going to be a factor in the calcs, too.

[don getz]

The only way you are really going to know is to go shoot the d______ thing....Don

[Roger Fisher]

The only way you are really going to know is to go shoot the d______ thing....Don

Well, I was waiting for someone to say that   So true!

Surely you heard the saying "you don't know 'wot' she wants til you try her out

[roundball]

The only way you are really going to know is to go shoot the d______ thing....Don

Amen.

One actual modern reference I can speak to is my .54cal with 31" x 1:66" barrel.

90grns Goex 3F
Oxyoke over powder wad
.018" pillow ticking
Hornady .530"

Dead zero at 50yds, drops 4" at 100yds actual distance tested...never tested beyond 100yds...I need to do that just to see.
I'd guess that shooting at a target basically on the same horizontal plane as the benched rifle, the ball would probably be near or in the dirt at 150yds

[BrownBear]

One actual modern reference I can speak to is my .54cal with 31" x 1:66" barrel.

90grns Goex 3F
Oxyoke over powder wad
.018" pillow ticking
Hornady .530"

Dead zero at 50yds, drops 4" at 100yds actual distance tested...never tested beyond 100yds...I need to do that just to see.
I'd guess that shooting at a target basically on the same horizontal plane as the benched rifle, the ball would probably be near or in the dirt at 150yds

That pretty well lines up with my experience.  Much past 250 yards things get real dicey.  Not only are you launching a rainbow, you're faced with group sizes that grow out of all proportion to MOA measures at closer ranges. 

[jerrywh]

So----- It looks like trying to get any kind of decent group at 200 yds. is a futile effort.  Right?? 
 So I should go ahead and change churches right???

[BrownBear]

Didn't say that at all.  I was talking past 250 in my own experience.  At 200 or even 250 sighting errors and especially wind- even slight breezes- will be big challenges.  I tried all the way out to 300 with 50, 54 and 58 cals.  Though mine all shot comparably at 100, there was a decided edge for my 58 at 300.  All pretty theoretical for me.  I probably don't have as many as 100 shots past 100 yards with any of the three rifles.  Just didn't see enough there to hold my interest, though it would be good to see what someone else could come up with.

[don getz]

Jerry.....we're talking open sights here, you can't expect too much at 200 yards.  With open sights on an 06' you won't
do much better......Don

[t.caster]

The only way you are really going to know is to go shoot the d______ thing....Don

Haha, Ya missed me...I saw that shot coming! 
I have been shootin John's barrel in my Beck for 4 years now, Don! I know what it does, I just wanted to see if the numbers matched the performance. I'm sighted in on center at 25yds. I don't shoot much beyound 75 yds around here.

[jerrywh]

I'm going to keep working on this 200 yd. thing. I'll keep the gang poated.  I going to try and work up a load with 100 grs. of fffg.  don't know if I can get a patch to hold or not.

[BrownBear]

I don't have the eyes for it anymore, but I'm sure interested.  Just way too many accounts of long shooting in the literature, even if we tend to restrict most of our shooting to 100 or less these days.

Here's a useful tip I gleaned from my own limited experiments:  Your biggest limitation is going to be finding a good aiming point sufficiently high above your target-  that is unless you want to go to adjustable sights.  Where I did my long shooting, there was a hillside running straight up from my target.  I put a white 5-gallon bucket up there, laying on it's side with its end toward me.  Took a little adjusting to get it in the right spot to land the balls on the paper, but it only took a couple of extra trips to the butts.  The bucket was about perfect at 200 yards, but a little small at 300.  Finally settled on the removeable lid from a white platic 55-gallon drum for my aiming point at 300 yards.

Take some surveying lath and tape to the range with you, too.  Pretty easy to stick in the ground here and there as wind flags.  You're going to need them!!!!!!

[keweenaw]

Jerry,

Group size isn't the problem.  If it's an absolutely still day and you're getting a !" group at 100 yards, you'll probably double it at 200.  Even if it was really bad, it probably wouldn't go up to much more than 4".  Of course if there are gusty winds all bets are off.  In any case your group is going to be about four feet lower which means you're going to have to have a considerably taller 200 yard leaf on your rear sight - which you knew already.  The muzzle velocity is going to get pretty critical in exactly how much lower.  I think Don is correct in the need to shoot it.  If you have it on at 100 yards and you know it's going to be about 4' low at 200, you have some idea of the target size you need to shoot  at 200 yards and once you know exactly how much lower it is at 200 it's easy to calculate the correct height of the 200 yard leaf.

Tom

[Dphariss]

I'm going to keep working on this 200 yd. thing. I'll keep the gang poated.  I going to try and work up a load with 100 grs. of fffg.  don't know if I can get a patch to hold or not.

It gets pretty tough at 200. Very little wind is needed to make the ball wander and it may go up and down as well as right and left. Its like shooting 22 RF at 200. A cross wind from the right can move the bullet right.
I know.... Before someone says this is impossible go shoot a 22 rf at 200 then make commnets. They do WIERD things at this range and so do RBs.

One really needs an aperture tang sight of some sort to shoot at 200. Anymore I need one at any distance....

I have Pejsa's ballisitic program and actual shooting a 25, 100 and 150 yards yesterday shows that a calculated BC of .093 ( http://members.aye.net/~bspen/math.html )  for a .662 RB is pretty close to what the ball really does.
In this case it is just under 2" high at 25, about 2.6 hi at 100 and 5.5" low at 150. But testing was pretty limited since I was just checking zero and had some mirage on the barrel and only shot 2 shots at 150. All off cross sticks. Wind stopped 200 yard testing but with the first leaf up the 22 yards shot was at the same elevation as the 150 with the standing sight.
I don't consider this all iron clad since I shot just a few shots (I knew the wind would be up in a few minutes) and one at 150 was way out for some reason. Could have been loading error. Bore was wiped with a fairly wet patch and dried between shots to approximate a clean bore hunting shot. Neatsfoot oil patch.

Running the program after shooting with the velocity, calculated BC and the "zero" set at the known 5.5" low at 150 gives:

It seems to be very close to what the ball is actually doing.
I would have rather had it 10-12" low at 150 but I have done some load changes recently (powder charge, patch and patch lube) and have not refiled the sights. But I am pretty confidant I know where it shoots now and Antelope season starts  Sunday. I thought it was going to be about 1 3/8 high at 100, near ideal . I suppose it might be off the bench but I don't shoot game off the bench.
I also need to recheck the velocity with the neatsfoot oil lube. To really set this in stone. But had I set up the chrono I would have been shooting in 10-20 MPH wind and this would have been pointless past 25 yards.

Dan

[volatpluvia]

Jerry,
I used to hit a steel plate 1' by 2' at 200 yards off the bench.  It was purposely hanging in front of a dirt bank so you could see where you missed it.  The gonne was a .54 Green mtn. barreled schimel in flint shooting roundball in front of 90 grs. of 3fg.
volatpluvia

[northmn]

One problem with stating that we used to hit a long range targets with consistency was that it was the same target and one learned where to hold.  Out in the field, you may not estimate correctly and a little difference in distance at longer ranges can cause a miss.  Wind plays total Billy H--l with rifles at 200, even modern ones.   Some practice at longer range and use laser range finders to get the range in the field.  I found with the expedients of field shooting that even with a scoped 270 200 yards was starting to stretch things a bit as to being able to hold on vitals.  Never carried a bench rest deer hunting.

DP

[BrownBear]

That reflects my experience northmn.  It's why I didn't bother changing my sights, and instead used alternate aiming points.  I was curious about holdover, but unwilling to compromise my sights at the cost of aiming points at more usual ranges.  If I was shooting long range matches and dedicating the rifle to the purpose, I'd have changed the sights in a New York minute.  But as it is, the long range shooting is purely for play and amaze-your-friends shots on informal plinking outings.  In war shooting close might be good enough to get a guy to duck and maybe discourage him, and a wound is better than a kill in terms of logistics burdens for your foe.  But on muzzleloader hunts a miss is good for a fish story and wounding is a moral burden for the shooter.