Author Topic: forging damascus barrels  (Read 18140 times)

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: forging damascus barrels
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2011, 08:28:43 AM »
Camerl,  It would be helpful to see your forge setup and perhaps some of the items you have made.  Could you post a few photos?  Do you build for your own use or have items for sale? 

Offline KNeilson

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Re: forging damascus barrels
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2011, 09:16:50 AM »
Many thx for the serious replys, gave me some info I didnt know...  caused me to rethink some other decisions...  Like the original post said, 
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ok so id like to start from the ground up on some guns i like damascus twist barrels how to make damascus steel
and do twist patterns

 Ive had this thought myself, first about 6 yrs ago , and now again just quite recently. Ive been a professional welder/metal worker for roughly 30 yrs now,dabbled in blacksmithing for 8-10, so how difficult could this be? (I ask myself).  Well, the first attempts(3-4) at getting a damascus billet to hold together didnt go as well as I wished. And those were just random pattern attempts.  Then when pride starts to take a back seat and I look for a little guidance, things improve. I can now make enough (steel  )for a small blade in a days work. I then applied my knowledge to developing patterns and twists, and with some more guidance, time, and $ spent,  I start to get some success. Both in the material I can produce and my comfort doing it.. so, now I want to put bigger billets together, and as I found out hand hammering small billets  really takes loads of time (as well as wearing you out). The need for more power is here. So, 3 powerhammers, a 20 ton forging press and about 4 more years of practice, I figure I might be able to pull it off (make a barrel). I ve got the film mentioned, also others, and believe you me, to construct a barrel as they do (billets to twists to rods to a helix to spirally jump welding) would be very difficult, and I am not going to be the one to replicate this procedure.  However I have had the thought of "wrapping" and have heard of others having sucess with this, imho for our times this would probably be the easiest way to be successful with the welding, easier on the following tasks such as boring, reaming, and rifling etc. . Did I mention that I already have produced a billet that I was planning to drill, bore, and ream/rifle....  That now has been put aside for sake of some of the recent posts on barrel material and neccesary machining..... Ive done enough for me to know to listen to the experiences of others (mostly  ;D), and am shelving this idea till I have educated myself just a wee bit more.....Both on materials I work with  and also on gunbuilding. Why try to build a Taj Mahal if youve never done a doghouse?...  jmho...... Kerry
a 2 x 4 x 6 in billet     this is 1 1/8 across flats by 14 long 
hammering it out   

Offline Don Getz

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Re: forging damascus barrels
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2011, 04:48:07 PM »
Jim Kelly.........I think you are correct on who made the "wheellock" for John Bivins.   I know it was someone out your
way that did it.....Detroit, Chicago,...not sure where he was from.   Now, for the rest of the story.   John stopped by our
shop on his way home and showed us the lock.....fabulous piece of work.   John had borrowed an original lock from a
friend, out of his gun.   John left out shop and stopped overnight with a friend in Baltimore.   That night, as John slept,
someone broke into his car and stole the original lock.   I can't recall what John did about that.   He was thinking about
having another made for the one stolen, not sure if that ever happened.  The tragic part of this robbery was the fact that
the guy that stole it had no idea of what it was, probably ended up in the river...............Don

Offline Dphariss

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Re: forging damascus barrels
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2011, 05:11:00 PM »
I think a lot of the steps they went through were to get the pattern they wanted and to purifiy the metal.
Metal purity was important.
The British were making barrels from horse shoe nail "stubs".
Something I could not figure out and really wondered about until I found "The Gun" by W. Greener (W W's father) 1832+-. This tells how they stubs, with a little added steel, were melted, gathered into a bloom then hammer into shape then further shaped layered etc and then welded into a "stub" twist barrel.
Its available for download from google books but may require some diligence to find since W W Greeners writings keep popping up in its place or did when I was searching for it.
Like all early writings on firearms there is a lot of 18th and 19th century "science" that seems pretty silly today. But there is valuable information just the same.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline JCKelly

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Re: forging damascus barrels
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2011, 05:24:42 PM »
Don - yes, that wheel lock was stolen out of Bivins' van. Helmut then made a copy for John to replace it. Helmut seems to have retired up in northern Michigan. He was originally from south Germany, apprenticed as a don't-recall-the-term guy who forged fancy locks. I swear Helmut could fix a watch with his hammer. Over his forge I made my first (only) forge weld in wrought iron, just before I burnt my first iron . . .

Offline JCKelly

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Re: forging damascus barrels
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2011, 07:07:54 PM »
OK, time for the Barrel Grinch to chime in. Once you finish this barrel, do proof test it with two overloads. Whatever any of us may say about proof testing a steel barrel, it is imperative to proof a forge-welded barrel to determine if the weld is strong.  With forge welds there is such a thing as a "dry weld", a joint that looks welded, even under a modern microscope (same is true of electric resistance welds). However under stress it will come apart nicely. 
A power hammer would be a very good thing to have. Hand-forged barrels tend to fail proof at a higher rate.
The following is taken from Chapter 5 of Harpers Ferry Armory and the New Technology, by Merritt Roe Smith. It has the best description anywhere, of gun barrel manufacture. Get thee a copy, perhaps from abebooks. Read Chapters 4 & 5. Then re-read them again, for a few days.
 
 At Harpers Ferry Armory the loss in proof of hand forged  barrels was typically 25% and during the 1830's could exceed 40% . At Springfield Armory where they used trip hammers the loss in proof was typically 10%.

In other posts I have mentioned the importance of a magnetic particle inspection for rifle barrels. In my own opinion this is inappropriate for a forge welded barrel. First, regardless of anyone's opinion, there is simply no body of industrial experience, published at least, on mag particle inspection of forge welds, especially in wrought iron. I believe iron was last puddled in this country about 1961. For this reason I would suggest you consider an old-fashioned proof test to determine if that forge-welded damascus barrel were sound.

Having no personal experience in the matter I really can't say more than "what I read in the papers". Which is, from Col. Bomford to the Secretary of War, John Calhoun, August, 1823:

                                                               MUSKETS
                                                  Proof and inspection of Barrels

The inspector will first examine the barrel . . . free from ring bores, cinder holes, flaws, cracks, and other defects . . . All the barrels which may pass this examination, will be closed at the breech, either with proving plugs or breech pins, and proved as follows, viz.
1st charge - One eighteenth part of a pound of powder; one lead bullet, weighing one-fifteenth part of a pound; and two paper wads, each to measure three fourths of an inch in length, after being well rammed; one of the wads to be placed on the top of the powder, the other on the top of the bullet. The whole to be well rammed with copper rods.
2nd charge. - One twenty-second part of a pound of powder, with one bullet, and two wads, as in the first charge.
. . .
The barrels which resist the proof, will be cleaned and examined, and, if no defects are discovered, the vents will be stopped, and the bores will be filled with water. If proving plugs have been used, they will be removed, and the breech pins will be screwed in before the water is applied. The barrels, when filled with water will be left standing about six hours, when they will be again examined; and if no water has passed through the breech, or made its appearance on the exterior of the barrel, nor any other defects observed, they will be received. The marks of reception will be as follows, viz: the letters U. S. to be placed on the top of the barrel, one inch distant from the breech, the initial letters of the inspector's name, with the letter P. under them, to be placed to the left of the letters U. S.; which marks will be made by the inspector.

This is part of a report from J. C. Calhoun to President Monroe. That is how they dealt with forge-welded wrought iron .69 caliber smoothbore musket barrels. One eighteenth part of a pound is 390 grain, one twenty-second part of a pound 320 grains, or calculate it yourself.




Offline Dphariss

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Re: forging damascus barrels
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2011, 07:17:34 PM »
A friend reported that a section can be cut off the end and then punched through the bore with a tapered punch to see if the weld breaks. If the weld breaks its not worth further work I suppose?

He would have to chime in.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline JTR

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Re: forging damascus barrels
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2011, 08:24:05 PM »
I'm still putting my money on a future ######## winner here!  ;D

John

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« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 01:05:44 AM by richpierce »
John Robbins

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Re: forging damascus barrels
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2011, 11:32:59 PM »
Perhaps a good bet!

Offline KNeilson

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Re: forging damascus barrels
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2011, 10:39:50 AM »
JCKelly, thx for the info on proofing, I will add it to my research. Sorry for not replying to your post so far. I think my post to this subject (damascus barrel forging)does really not belong on ALF, really something I thing no colonial smith wuold have dealt with. It was more leaned towards camerl2009 to show what kind of effort it takes just to be succesfull at producing the materials.  I would rather learn proper building and the types of steels I pattern weld with are not really suitable by themselves (for a barrel). Much less mixed. This forum has educated me towards this potential fatal flaw. I have read many methods of proving, mentally devised what I had planned to do, but never really considered the properties of the materials i use for extended and prolonged used.  My background allows me to understand such things as strain and stress on metals and what happens when they are subjected to such. I do destructive weld testing with an almost daily occurance for a living. Just not as much (in fact nothing) about gunbuilding..
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He would have to chime in.
Dan, Ive been horizontal with Sciatica for a couple weeks now with my computer at work, sorry for not paying more attention. The "ring test" I am aware of, and have used it to test DOM to see how the welds elongogate. If I decide to continue (long in the future) it definately will be on the menu. Will have to find suitable materials(alloys) first. 
The rest of you guys...Your right, which is why I havent completed this yet. However there ARE people that do, and probably there always will be people interested in trying or at least wondering how it was done....  FWIW  This fellow has passed European proofs, and makes beautiful Damascus tools and items, check it out... There is a small picture of his barrels on his pages....    regards.........   Kerry

http://www.heinz-denig.de/index_e.html