Author Topic: forging damascus barrels (Read 18148 times)

camerl2009 · « **on:** January 27, 2011, 07:01:07 AM »

ok so id like to start from the ground up on some guns i like damascus twist barrels how to make damascus steel
and do twist patterns

i know how to forge a barrel i think come spring time to make a new forge get my anvil out try it out

if it dont work i can mak it into knivers

Dave B · « **Reply #1 on:** January 27, 2011, 08:45:34 AM »

Good luck with that CAM,
I think it would be cool to forge up a long rifle barrel. I know how its done but knowing the principles and carrying out the task success fully is another thing. Maybe you have done some barrel work already and are an old hand. I have done a little forging with knives and one tomahawk. I attempted to do some forge welding once and shot slag across the shop and burnt my sons foot. I will have to make differnt arrangements next go round. Damascus or pattern welding is pretty cool too. I have seen Jaeger barrels for sale that were pattern welded and I would own one if I could spare the 1500 bucks to get one. Ed Rayle had one for sale at one of the CLA shows I went to years ago. It was going for only 1200 at the time and I had the cash but I told an other guy about my wanting to buy it that afternoon and he went and bought it right then. He got it from a supplier that found a bunch of pattern welded blanks made to make shot gun barrels from. They still have quite a few from what I under stand. Good luck with welding up a Damascus pattern barrel. I would like to see some pic's when your done.

David Veith · « **Reply #2 on:** January 27, 2011, 04:13:01 PM »

A couple of thoughts for you. One of the members of a demo group. Did one about 8" long out of mild steel once. Showing from start to finish. Do you have a power hammer or you will need a second person. You will be needing a skip(SP) 1/4 to 3/8 thick 2" wide by x long for something around a 36 cal. The other is that they normally use a different anvil. I can't think of it even though I own one. Or was you going for just a round barrel. Do a lot of thinking before you start. don't be afraid to ask for some help more of a two person job.
David

Rasch Chronicles · « **Reply #3 on:** January 27, 2011, 04:33:41 PM »

And don't forget a 300# swage block...

Best regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™
The Best Turkey Hunting Tips!

Bill of the 45th · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2011, 04:51:00 PM »

And a spreading Chestnut tree, to stand under.

Bill

Don Getz · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2011, 04:56:20 PM »

Rasch..........we were involved in the making of a beautiful Jager barrel, in damascus, for John Bivins. It went onto that super wheelock rifle that John built and is pictured in Bob Weil's book on Contemporary Makers. John found a blacksmith
by the name of Griffiths, who lived up in the Pocono section of Pa., to do the hard work. He finally was able to forge a
damascus blank around a solid bar of 12L14, not an easy feat by the way. He produced basically a round blank of steel
which we processed just like any other barrel. We initially turned it in the lathe to somewhat true it up, then put it into
our drill and punched a hole in it. Reamed, rifled and then profiled it in our milling machine. Bore was pretty good, not
perfect, had a few small inclusions. After finishing it, we made a breech plug to hold a fuse and went out to an old quarry and proofed it.......after the first shot, John let out a mighty "Rebel" yell, he was really happy that it didn't come apart.
According to John, this was actually the first "rifle" barrel ever done in damascus steel in America. So, now you know..............Don

Rasch Chronicles · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2011, 06:16:45 PM »

Mr G,

Thanks for the annecdote! I would have enjoyed observing the process, and seeing the blank after it was turned. Actually I would pretty much like to see the darned finished piece!

Best Regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™
Hunting Late Season Whitetails!

Captchee · « **Reply #7 on:** January 27, 2011, 06:40:48 PM »

Here is a link to a 1929 documentary film on the subject .
Might be worth the money spend , cant say as I have not seen the movie
http://www.damascus-barrels.com/Movie.html
If you go to the link above’s home page it will give you some good starting info as well

Peter Dyson and son still list original blanks on their website. Maybe that the retailer you were thinking of Dave B

There also are a couple companies in England who produce nitro proofed Damascus barrels
Damasteel is one .
http://www.crandart.co.uk/damasteel.htm
I priced one of their barrels for a customer a couple years ago . You will need a deep wallet

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #8 on:** January 27, 2011, 08:11:10 PM »

Also: There was a fellow in IL who wrapped several Damascus barrels back in the 1980's - his name was Daryl Meyers , I believe. He did one for Monte Mandarino and Getz rifled it if my memory serves me correct. Damascus is difficult to hand rifle as it has many different layers of steel/iron in it and each one requires a different speed of cut - not to mention the inclusions that a hand forged barrel has in it. Anyway it can be done with a lot of Patience and a few@#$%^&@@** words as well!?

Hugh Toenjes

camerl2009 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 27, 2011, 08:46:22 PM »

Quote from: Blacksmoke on January 27, 2011, 08:11:10 PM

Also: There was a fellow in IL who wrapped several Damascus barrels back in the 1980's - his name was Daryl Meyers , I believe. He did one for Monte Mandarino and Getz rifled it if my memory serves me correct. Damascus is difficult to hand rifle as it has many different layers of steel/iron in it and each one requires a different speed of cut - not to mention the inclusions that a hand forged barrel has in it. Anyway it can be done with a lot of Patience and a few@#$%^&@@** words as well!?
Hugh Toenjes

to get rid of inclusions you from it on a smaller mandrel then bore it out
and iron/steel nono im going to use 4140 and 1018 or somthing

camerl2009 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 27, 2011, 08:52:10 PM »

Quote from: David Veith on January 27, 2011, 04:13:01 PM

A couple of thoughts for you. One of the members of a demo group. Did one about 8" long out of mild steel once. Showing from start to finish. Do you have a power hammer or you will need a second person. You will be needing a skip(SP) 1/4 to 3/8 thick 2" wide by x long for something around a 36 cal. The other is that they normally use a different anvil. I can't think of it even though I own one. Or was you going for just a round barrel. Do a lot of thinking before you start. don't be afraid to ask for some help more of a two person job.
David

nope no power hamer

just a sledge you know one with a short handle it 3-5lb or so

never use a cast iron anvil i broke the one i had it last year

Jerry V Lape · « **Reply #11 on:** January 28, 2011, 02:13:35 AM »

Sounds like the hammer and anvil theory concerning the American GI. (you have to have been responsible for military property to appreciate this). The theory held that if you gave a GI a 300lb anvil and a rubber mallet and left him unsupervised for about an hour, not only will he have broken the anvil he would have lost the rubber hammer as well.

camerl2009 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 28, 2011, 02:40:22 AM »

Quote from: Jerry V Lape on January 28, 2011, 02:13:35 AM

Sounds like the hammer and anvil theory concerning the American GI. (you have to have been responsible for military property to appreciate this). The theory held that if you gave a GI a 300lb anvil and a rubber mallet and left him unsupervised for about an hour, not only will he have broken the anvil he would have lost the rubber hammer as well.

nope dont let your frind thats helping you use a 5lb sledge hammer
i now give him a 3lb and tell him to use 2 hands oh well it was time i get a cast steel anvil witch is alot better

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #13 on:** January 28, 2011, 03:08:23 AM »

camerl2009: Are you talking a genuine Damascus barrel which has a spiral pattern in the metal? Or a hand forged barrel with one longitudinal seam? Genuine Damascus is made up of layers of iron and steel twisted into a "skelp", pounded flat the wrapped around a mandrel and forge welded seams which are "bumped" together from end to end for at least 40". This not an easy process - it takes a lot of forging skill among several workers to preform this task. I do not know you and so I do not want to offend your abilities. But I would be interested to see your final result.

HughToenjes

camerl2009 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 28, 2011, 03:54:49 AM »

Quote from: Blacksmoke on January 28, 2011, 03:08:23 AM

camerl2009: Are you talking a genuine Damascus barrel which has a spiral pattern in the metal? Or a hand forged barrel with one longitudinal seam? Genuine Damascus is made up of layers of iron and steel twisted into a "skelp", pounded flat the wrapped around a mandrel and forge welded seams which are "bumped" together from end to end for at least 40". This not an easy process - it takes a lot of forging skill among several workers to preform this task. I do not know you and so I do not want to offend your abilities. But I would be interested to see your final result. HughToenjes

yes im talking the twist pattern im buying that dvd in the like above

JCKelly · « **Reply #15 on:** January 28, 2011, 04:14:02 AM »

I believe that wheel lock rifle Bivins made used a lock hand made by Helmut Veit, here in Michigan. Helmut was one of, or the, first to make wheel locks in the US. Don't know if he still does this.

Dphariss · « **Reply #16 on:** January 28, 2011, 04:20:51 AM »

Quote from: camerl2009 on January 28, 2011, 03:54:49 AM

Quote from: Blacksmoke on January 28, 2011, 03:08:23 AM
camerl2009: Are you talking a genuine Damascus barrel which has a spiral pattern in the metal? Or a hand forged barrel with one longitudinal seam? Genuine Damascus is made up of layers of iron and steel twisted into a "skelp", pounded flat the wrapped around a mandrel and forge welded seams which are "bumped" together from end to end for at least 40". This not an easy process - it takes a lot of forging skill among several workers to preform this task. I do not know you and so I do not want to offend your abilities. But I would be interested to see your final result. HughToenjes

yes im talking the twist pattern im buying that dvd in the like above

I hope you got a good arm. Most barrel forgers had at least couple of strikers.
They usually made 2-3 low grade barrels before getting the fire good enough to do good barrels.

Dan

camerl2009 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 28, 2011, 04:22:12 AM »

Quote from: JCKelly on January 28, 2011, 04:14:02 AM

I believe that wheel lock rifle Bivins made used a lock hand made by Helmut Veit, here in Michigan. Helmut was one of, or the, first to make wheel locks in the US. Don't know if he still does this.

who wants one there not reliable at all i will say that when thay go off thay
are good but thats a big if. id rather go flintlock

$#*! matchlock are more reliable then the wheellock

but thats just my .02

camerl2009 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 28, 2011, 04:26:00 AM »

[/quote]

I hope you got a good arm. Most barrel forgers had at least couple of strikers.
They usually made 2-3 low grade barrels before getting the fire good enough to do good barrels.

Dan
[/quote]

well we will see what happens

tim crowe · « **Reply #19 on:** January 28, 2011, 05:11:17 AM »

Cam,

Bookie can answer yer questions, he forges a couple a year.
http://members.iowatelecom.net/toadhall/barrel_welding.htm

We forged 5-6 barrels last year. He does not talk about anything he has not done in barrel welding.

Cheers.

volatpluvia · « **Reply #20 on:** January 28, 2011, 06:28:23 AM »

Camel,
I know I shouldn't take the bait, and I don't want to hijack the thread. But...Wheellocks can be reliable, but you work really hard coming to know how to make them work well. Ask me how I know this.
volatpluvia

camerl2009 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 28, 2011, 06:37:21 AM »

Quote from: volatpluvia on January 28, 2011, 06:28:23 AM

Camel,
I know I shouldn't take the bait, and I don't want to hijack the thread. But...Wheellocks can be reliable, but you work really hard coming to know how to make them work well. Ask me how I know this.
volatpluvia

like i said its just my .02

Cody Tetachuk · « **Reply #22 on:** January 28, 2011, 06:06:44 PM »

Quote from: camerl2009 on January 28, 2011, 06:37:21 AM

like i said its just my .02

Everybody thinks they are worth more than everyone else. When people give THEIR opinion it's "giving their .02" but when they ask for someones else's opinion it's "a penny for your thoughts".

Z. Buck · « **Reply #23 on:** January 29, 2011, 07:17:03 AM »

Cam the fact that you would even consider a project without a ringer tells me you are not ready for this undertaking and have no idea the work that goes into one, especially when combined with your comment about using a smaller mandrel to ream it our to get rid of inclusions. these are in the nature of twist skelp damascus and are the reason that only the highest grade barrels are still considered safe to shoot. you have to be a 100% success rate forge welder to be able to make a twist skelp barrel, because any mess ups are pretty much unfixable without totally pooching your pattern, i strongly suggest that you go make a "plain" barrel with a well experienced barrel forger before you attempt this master level feat.

On another note, between a well tuned matchlock, flintlock wheellock and even percussion, the wheellock wins the reliability test every time, its downfall is that its difficulty to get right and is virtually unmaintainable for military use. Just my Buck's worth.

camerl2009 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 29, 2011, 07:22:31 AM »

Quote from: Zack Buck on January 29, 2011, 07:17:03 AM

Cam the fact that you would even consider a project without a ringer tells me you are not ready for this undertaking and have no idea the work that goes into one, especially when combined with your comment about using a smaller mandrel to ream it our to get rid of inclusions. these are in the nature of twist skelp damascus and are the reason that only the highest grade barrels are still considered safe to shoot. you have to be a 100% success rate forge welder to be able to make a twist skelp barrel, because any mess ups are pretty much unfixable without totally pooching your pattern, i strongly suggest that you go make a "plain" barrel with a well experienced barrel forger before you attempt this master level feat.

On another note, between a well tuned matchlock, flintlock wheellock and even percussion, the wheellock wins the reliability test every time, its downfall is that its difficulty to get right and is virtually unmaintainable for military use. Just my Buck's worth.

i dont need any one else i dont like to work with people slowing me down and there is no one that forges barrel any where near me thats for sure

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Author Topic: forging damascus barrels (Read 18148 times)

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