Problem With a Precarved Lock Mortice

[Majorjoel]

I thought I would save some time and bought a pre-carved stock for a Rice A wt swamped 32 cal. 42" barrel I've had laying around for the last couple of years. After all of the usual barrel channel clean up and tang inletting, I thought all was going well until I got to the lock mortice. It was machine cut for a large siler, which fit with a small amount of inletting. Now the pan sits a full quarter inch too low and actually has an opening into the oblique flat dropping like a water slide right into the barrel channel!! The future touch hole location cannot be lowered much due to the small bore size. So far I have removed as much wood from the barrel channel as the lower web will allow and have reduced the opening gap to 1\8 of an inch . I then pulled out my copy of TOTW's catalog and have been studying the various locks to see if something might be available that would overlap a siler and have a higher pan. No luck there either. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can get out of this corner I've painted myself into?? This is the first and last precarved lock mortice I will ever look upon again!

[t.caster]

Hi Joel, too bad it's a pre-carve, there probably is not enough wood left to move the lock up & fashion a wooden patch strip below it.
Sounds like a candidate for a "tri-stock".
Don't give up on precarves though....Chambers kits have much closer tolerances.

[Frank]

You can try one of Jim Chambers gunmakers flintlocks. It has a rectangular lock plate that is 5 and 7/8 inch by 1 and 3/16 inch. That should be enough material for you to shape the lock plate to correct the problem.

http://www.flintlocks.com/locks6.htm

[Jim Filipski]

Joel,
Drill down from the  breech area of barrel channel ( in a few places )into the ramrod hole  Measure the depth with a wire and straight edge layed across the barrel channel and transfer to the lock side of the stock with a pencil and draw a line ( designates the bottom of the RR hole. Add marks above this for the thickness of the ramrod. The rest is what is left is the web ...My thinking with any of those precarves is the barrel channel is not inlet deep enough!. You can drop that barrel down into that stock enough to fix your problem Just because the barrel is fully inlet doesn't mean it is in the proper place. My bet is it can go deeper and solve your problem.
Jim

[don getz]

Where did you buy this "precarved" stock?  They are not all the same, as you well know by now.  I was merely trying to
ascertain who may have actually carved the stock......do you know?    I use them all the time, but then again, we actually made the pattern which makes a big difference............Don

[George F.]

Although I didn't think of it myself, I like Jim's idea best. If that don't work, If you can fill the lock mortice in with some scrap and re inlett the lock.

[Majorjoel]

Don, I bought the stock from TOTW. I have used their precarves before with no trouble. This is the first one that had the lock mortice done. With a swamped profile there was no choice. I will continue drawing wood from the barrel channel using Jim's advise and methods. But things in the web area are getting pretty thin. At this point I cannot complain about the supplier, the barrel fit is about as close to perfect as can be. I really apreciate all of help on this problem!

[bob in the woods]

I agree on inletting the barrel deeper. If that is not enough to solve your problem, go with that gunmaker's lock from Chambers. They are really versatile. Actually, you may be able to buy the lock plate alone, and that way use your current lock parts.

[Roger Fisher]

Joel,
Drill down from the  breech area of barrel channel ( in a few places )into the ramrod hole  Measure the depth with a wire and straight edge layed across the barrel channel and transfer to the lock side of the stock with a pencil and draw a line ( designates the bottom of the RR hole. Add marks above this for the thickness of the ramrod. The rest is what is left is the web ...My thinking with any of those precarves is the barrel channel is not inlet deep enough!. You can drop that barrel down into that stock enough to fix your problem Just because the barrel is fully inlet doesn't mean it is in the proper place. My bet is it can go deeper and solve your problem.
Jim

I'm far from expert in anything but I'll add that ol Jim's suggestion should be the least expensive and depending on how darn low that mortice is should solve the headache so you don'e beat up your significant other and can sleep better.. I am now working (slowly) on a smoothy that the rod hole has very little web from the rear pipe area on back and has no web for 3 inches forward of the lock. The rear lug ended up being cupped up against the barrel and a thin pin used.  The next job will be to figure on a salvation or a brain wave to come over me on how to set in that frt
lock bolt.  I'll ponder that matter later on down the road.  You will need to also!@!

[Pete G.]

I like the idea of lowering the barrel, but be careful with the wrist architecture.

[Majorjoel]

There should be no compromise between a rifles good lines and architecture and the very simple geometry of it's ignition system. We all want to build a gun that not only looks good, but shoots good as well. After removing about as much of the barrel channel as I want to, this is where I'm at. As seen in the pictures, the lock mortice was definately placed to low in the foreward end.  http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq171/joelhall452/P1000169.jpg[/img]]  http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq171/joelhall452/P1000171.jpg[/img]]  [ftp][/ftp]

[Birddog6]

First I would contact TOW, tell them the issue,  & ask them if they will replace the stock. Obviously the lock inlet was not in it's proper place, and all they can do is say Yes or No, and it just costs you a phone call either way.
If that fails to produce good results, I would drop the barrel some some to get it down within reason & just use one lock screw at the rear & use a fake front lock screw.

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

After looking at these pictures I would like to enter the fray! First, I doubt they would take it back, but regardless, this is a great platform to help anyone with a similar issue. I have to cure a lot of problems with my students and I think I can help. First, I cant tell where they have the rod hole, but definitely drop the barrel down. It has plenty of belly wood and to continue down with the barrel is the correct solution. If you were to make a new plate, it would look just plain ugly. It would have so much extra steel on the plate as to look like a bad fix. But if you drop the barrel down the worst thing that could happen is you would run into the rod channel in the lower forestock. Not so bad cause you could both taper your rod (as originals were done anyway) and if necessary cut out a little bit of rod hole material from the bottom of the channel under the flat. When you get done you can patch up with an epoxy repair bedding material and replace the stocks lost integrity.
This stock is not one from their normal supplier, so I don't know who made it for them, but its not a good job for sure. If you keep it, remember you have to drop evenly from the muzzle to the breech. Its actually not so bad if you will use a straight chisel and scrapers. Its a shame that some stockmakers do this sorry a job for the public.
Susie

[Dphariss]

Pre-carves can be a double edged sword. The drop is often as advertised and sometimes the parts don't fit due to oversized/botched inlets. But this does not apply to all pre-carves. TOW has issues sometimes in my experience.
I would look at setting the breech deeper in the wood and see if that can be made to work.
Other than that I would see if  a larger lock might be a fix.

Dan

[Majorjoel]

I have contacted Greg at Track and am waiting for his reply on this subject. I have wrestled around with all sorts of off the wall ideas. That in essence is what makes us better builders. How well we recover from some of the adversities we face. One of the prime factors to consider with this build is the fact that the barrel is only a 32 caliber. That makes it even more difficult when you consider the options for touch hole locations are going to have higher, more to central flat vs lower flat positioning. Believe it or not, I have been thinking about shaving off some of the lower flat of the barrel itself. I do have lots of metal there before the bore becomes exposed. I will wait to hear from you all before I get the file out. Thanks again...Joel

[keweenaw]

Joel,

There are times when the best thing to do is to throw in the towel. Sometimes we have to pay for education. Those light barrels are so flexible as is that thinning the bottom flat may well result in a rather poor shooter.  While you could fill the lock mortise with a gunmaker's lock, it would look very strange and unless you did a lot of filling in the mortise there would be large voids.  An easier use for the current blank would be to inlet a larger barrel if there is enough thickness of the forestock.

Tom

[Dphariss]

I have contacted Greg at Track and am waiting for his reply on this subject. I have wrestled around with all sorts of off the wall ideas. That in essence is what makes us better builders. How well we recover from some of the adversities we face. One of the prime factors to consider with this build is the fact that the barrel is only a 32 caliber. That makes it even more difficult when you consider the options for touch hole locations are going to have higher, more to central flat vs lower flat positioning. Believe it or not, I have been thinking about shaving off some of the lower flat of the barrel itself. I do have lots of metal there before the bore becomes exposed. I will wait to hear from you all before I get the file out. Thanks again...Joel

If TOW will not replace.
Be a lot easier to set the barrel deep at the breech maybe 1/16 of an inch or so and then taper the depth out toward the muzzle so no wood is removed by about the entry pipe or just past it. Once shaped the upper forend will conform to the barrel if thinned properly.
Even if you break into the rod channel it can be moved "deeper" as well.

Looks like the stock is designed for a larger barrel and they did not get the smaller channel cut deep enough. The cut it to the top line of the stock rather than cutting it to the lock position.
Of it was a machine set up goof of some kind?

Dan

[Darkhorse]

I had the same problem with a TOTW stock except mine was a B profile. Still the problem was the same. I was stubborn and managed to complete the rifle and was surprised how well it looks.....on the outside anyway.
To get the lock in the right position the barrel had to go deeper into the stock. A little fudging can be done with the lock placement itself. Those mortices are often undersize and the lock can sometimes be moved forward or back, or up and down a little. The combination of the two was enough in my case.
However the front lock bolt had to be ground for clearance and the ram rod had to be tapered a good bit. Only problem here is if someone forgets or ignores the little mark I put on the front lock bolt, or forgets to pull the RR before trying to remove the bolt.
My stock was not offered with a set trigger and that's what I wanted. But Track assured me a set trigger would work.  This created new problems in an unexpected area. The geometry of the set trigger sets it farther back than a single trigger plate. Which also sets back the TG. Which left the forward part of the preinlet for the TG as a hole in the stock. Since this was a smaller barrel I was able to "Just" Inlet the front of the trigger guard, then work down the stock in front of it till the TG mortice was removed.
Also the wood was a horror to work with. It split in two at the muzzle, hence the pewter chevron nosecap, and didn't want to whisker.
But all this worked out and it is one fine looking and fine shooting rifle.
Just a PITA to get it that way.

[Sam Everly]

I have used precarves for over 30 years , but with only the barrel channel and rod inlets . Way back when, Frontier carving shop was a good one , now i like Pecatonica and Tiger Hunt . Fred Miller has a lot of pattrens that are good . 

[don getz]

Sam.....I didn't know you went back that far.   I bought my first stock from Paul Taran (Frontier Carving Shop) when he
was working out of his garage behind the house and he  lived in Hughesville, Pa....1970.  Got to know Paul pretty well
over the years.....he used to sell some pretty good wood.     Don

[Sam Everly]

Yes Don , It has been almost 35 years ago that i built my frist rifle. I used a XX Douglas barrel, a Siler flint lock by Pete Allen, a real nice stock from Frontier. It turned out very nice , i had planed it for about a year before i bought any parts . I bought that stock from Don Davis when he had the little gun shop there in Friendship . I bought all the parts there at Friendship that year , Chuck dixion went with me and helped me pick them out .Being i was only 15 and he took me under his wing, how about that for a learning curve !     

[Torfinn]

OK. if Track will not replace the stock another option is to age the rifle and include a "repair".  Rifles broke all the time from use.  the quality of a repair job seen on originals range from almost undetectable to strictly utilitarian to hasty field repairs.  Your choice.  You could remove a sliver of wood that is longer than the lock from the bottom area of the stock at the lock mortice and "repair" it with another similer piece of wood, thus allowing you to re-inlet the lock higher to its proper position. 

[T*O*F]

Everyone is recommending that wood be added to the bottom of the mortise and the lock be inlet higher up.  Since this is a pre-shaped stock it will put the top of the lock above the top of the forestock.  Are we now going to add wood to the length of the forestock to raise it up level with the lock.

I must be mssing something.

[Torfinn]

Of course not having the piece in hand I may well be just blowing smoke.  But looking at your picture it appears that there is a little bit of room to move the lock up so that the top of the pan is even with the top edge of the barrel channel.  Maybe moving the Barrel down a bit and the lock up a bit is enough to correct the geometry. As I said without the piece in hand it is hard to tell, so it is only a suggestion.

[Dphariss]

OK. if Track will not replace the stock another option is to age the rifle and include a "repair".  Rifles broke all the time from use.  the quality of a repair job seen on originals range from almost undetectable to strictly utilitarian to hasty field repairs.  Your choice.  You could remove a sliver of wood that is longer than the lock from the bottom area of the stock at the lock mortice and "repair" it with another similer piece of wood, thus allowing you to re-inlet the lock higher to its proper position. 

Still have a cobbled POS.
If barrel can't be set deeper its firewood if not returnable. Since the lock is that low I would think the barrel could be set 1/8" deeper at the breech.
Silly to pile a lot of work into a Frankenstein.

Dan