Questions on the use of 18th century rifle mold cherries

[Artificer]

Folks, from time to time I have to make a determined effort to remember they did not have precision measuring tools in the 18th century.  These may be questions of “What came first, the chicken or the egg?”  Maybe I’m completely off base, here, so please correct me if I’m mistaken.  I do not have access to sources that Wallace or Gary or others have had over the years

I have a copy of the Gunsmith in Colonial Virginia by Harold Gill, JR.  I sort of sped read through it, but I only noticed one estate inventory of Joshua Baker (recorded April 5th 1769 that specified cherries and there were 7 in that estate.  I may have missed the word cherries in other estate lists, but they list boring tools or other things that would account for the cherries to someone inventorying the estate and who did not know what the cherries or other tools were for. 

I have always assumed that gunsmiths would make or buy the cherries to cut the molds for their guns and then ream the bores of the barrels to fit the cherries they had.  I’m thinking it would be easier to do it that way without precision measuring instruments nor precision machines to make a whole bunch of precision cherries to keep on hand.  Is that the way they did it? 

If they did it that way, how much windage would they have allowed in the bore for the patch?  IOW, how much larger was the bore size than the ball size?  That may not have been recorded, but it would be great to know.  From even the very first time I watched “The Gunsmith of Colonial Williamsburg” back in the mid 70’s, I was extremely impressed how Wallace glued paper strips on his rifling cutter to make fine depth cutting adjustments.  I’m assuming they would have done something similar to ream out the bore size of a rifle barrel for fine adjustments?
Gus

[David Veith]

At the same time you have to remember that when you bought a gun a lot of time it was by the lb of balls for the gun I don't remember the #'s off the top of my head. But like 135 balls would equal a 32 cal. Where a .75 cal would be 21 balls.
Plus they used a lot of thin leather for patching. with DEEP rifling like .12 where to day some are maybe .06 deep.
David

[Artificer]

My lack of knowledge about making rifle barrels in the period is what drives the question.

I assume the gunsmith would make a mold using one of his cherries in the size closest to what the customer ordered.  Either that or cast a ball from a mold he had purchased.  Then after using the closest mandrel to that size to forge the barrel, the gunsmith would have reamed the bore of the rifle to make sure a ball cast from the mold would fit. 

What I don't know is how much "windage" the gunsmith would have reamed into the barrel for the ball and patch.
Gus

[flintriflesmith]

The so called windage is the same question you ask yourself today. Do you shoot a .490 ball in a .50 barrel? If so the windage is .010"  In the Gunsmith of Williamsburg film and in the shop for 20 years after that movie was made we just judged this by rattling the cherry in the bore. Believe it or not you can learn the look and feel of very small differences in measurement.

In terms of how the final interior diameter of the bore is established take a look at the square bitting process illustrated in this article on my web page.

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/ToolsandTechniques/barrel_making.htm

Gary

[Artificer]

Gary,

Really appreciate you chiming in!  I was hoping you would do so. 

I first watched the Gunsmith of Williamsburg at Colonial Williamsburg I think in the mid 70's?  Watched it there often since and I have it in my library now.  Don't even remember how many times I have watched it and thoroughly enjoy it every time.  Must have completely missed where you wiggled the cherry into the bore.

I can appreciate how you learned to judge very small differences in the bore, though in my case it is from hand filing and hand fitting modern parts to NM pistols.  People thought we were crazy when we told them we were working in ten thousandths of an inch increments on hand filing and hand stoning slide stops to NM barrels. 

If I may be so bold as to ask one more thing, do you have an idea or speculaton on how much oversize 18th century gunsmiths reamed their barrels over the cherry size to account for various cloth or leather patching materials? 

Thank you for your thoughts.
Gus

[KNeilson]

I find this an interesting topic. Currently I am in the process of trying to make a mold cherry. I am doing it using modern tools, but can see than it is very possible using only HC methods...imho with the time it took to make a barrel vs a cherry, I doubt a person would fit a barrel to a cherry, unless he had the cherry first. After a while in the trade you would probably have a selection of cherries to work with. We probably look into the precision of matching patch/ball/lube combos more than they did, I would also think we have a greater and easier time making that selection.

In the Gunsmith of Williamsburg film and in the shop for 20 years after that movie was made we just judged this by rattling the cherry in the bore. Believe it or not you can learn the look and feel of very small differences in measurement.

For sizing I can see this being accurate,you would soon learn what worked best.     
regards...Kerry

[omark]

it was always my idea that the barrel was made, reamed until smooth with no pits etc, then rifled. after that a mold was made, which insinuates the cherry was made after rifling the barrel. im surethat if a smith had several molds he may keep reaming to the cherry size.   guess this sounds pretty contradictary, doesnt it.   guess im just thinking out loud.  maybe the difference would be is it easier to ream it farther than making a cherry and mold.  again just thinking. but seems the way i would go at it.   mark

[Blacksmoke]

David: you make a good point regarding the use of leather!  On the frontier and the colonies of early Amerca one must remember that cloth/linen was at very scarce and all  loomed by hand.  There  were no "Joann's Fabrics" at the local mall!  Also old original gun barrels had VERY deep rifling compared to today's .010"-.015" rifling!  I've measured some old rifling that was .060" deep!  So the logical conclusion is to use leather for patching.  Have you ever tried it?  I have - it works wonderful!    I used "brain tan" deer skin lubed with bear tallow.  loaded like a dream and it didn't tear or burn.  Also I was able to use the same patch over and over again!   However the rifling that I do is, also , very deep - at least .025"-.035" and I allways use an under size ball by .010"-.020" of the bore size.    Hugh Toenjes

[flintriflesmith]

David: you make a good point regarding the use of leather!  On the frontier and the colonies of early Amerca one must remember that cloth/linen was at very scarce and all  loomed by hand.  There  were no "Joann's Fabrics" at the local mall! ......  Hugh Toenjes

I think most research would tell us that fabric was readily available on the frontier and even that it was often the principle article in the trade to NA. It was imported from Europe where cheap labor and advanced technology produced it as part of the world economy. The absence of looms and spinning wheels from frontier inventories supports this conclusion.

Gary

[doug]

     the question in my mind is how did they get the cherries close to round on the top to bottom axis.  I have tried making a couple of cherries on a metal lathe and the top to bottom roundness leaves much to be desired.  I suspect most of the cherries were bought and I also suspect that a gunsmith might have two or three cherries that were close to the right dimension and would chose which one to use after the gun was made.  Keep in mind too, that many of the barrels used by the mid 1800s were store bought and made by Remington and other companies.

cheers Doug

[LynnC]

Gus - that's the way I made a cherry except I drilled rather than hot punched the initial hole . Then countersinked to make the desired cutting edge and diameter.  Honed flat, hardened and tempered.  Honed again and ready to make cherry.....Lynn

[Artificer]

Gus - that's the way I made a cherry except I drilled rather than hot punched the initial hole . Then countersinked to make the desired cutting edge and diameter.  Honed flat, hardened and tempered.  Honed again and ready to make cherry.....Lynn

Lynn,

Thanks for mentioning that.  After I posted the note, I got to thinking it was a bit obnoxious of me to suggest something I had never done, so I deleted the post.  Your post shows me I wasn't far off base though and I do thank you for that.

Gus

[Blacksmoke]

Gary:   Does your reply regarding the availability of cloth for patching during the colonial period suggest that leather was never used?  How about the Corps of discovery?  Did they not return wearing skins because their clothes rotted and wore out?  I suggest that where cloth was not available - leather was
a viable alternative for patching material.  To me it seems like wilderness survival would demand it.   Hugh Toenjes

[LynnC]

Gus - you were right on target IMHO - should have left the post as it was good basic instruction - oh well......Lynn

[flintriflesmith]

Gary:   Does your reply regarding the availability of cloth for patching during the colonial period suggest that leather was never used?  How about the Corps of discovery?  Did they not return wearing skins because their clothes rotted and wore out?  I suggest that where cloth was not available - leather was
a viable alternative for patching material.  To me it seems like wilderness survival would demand it.   Hugh Toenjes

I was NOT suggesting that leather was never used. I was, however, disputing this " On the frontier and the colonies of early America one must remember that cloth/linen was at very scarce and all  loomed by hand." 

Actual accounts of loading techniques from America in the colonial, or even pre-civil war, period are very rare but none that I have seen (yet) describe using leather patches. We do have accounts of the use of leather in England and Germany but I don't think anyone would attribute it to the scarcity of cloth over there.
Gary

[Captchee]

 my take has always been that  once a barrel was made , the bore would be swaged and then a  cherry made  .
 But when it comes to a gunsmith , I think they would have had a  selection of cherries already made that fir their specific tooling

THE REVOLUTIONARY BLACKSMITH
by Jim Paw-Paw Wilson
 records some entries of  making a replacment  for a lost mould

[Blacksmoke]

Gary:  OOPS:  I needed to qualify my statement a little more before posting it!   You are correct as to availability of cloth through out the colony's.   I was focusing more on the use of leather for patching in the old days, than the supply of cloth.    Could leather have been used because it was thought to be superior to fabric?   Some years back I was heavily involved with reenactment and research with the HBC Co. and it's involvement with the early fur trade at Historic Ft. Langley B.C. Canada and other posts along the west coast.     Like you, I could not find any reference to patching material, in any of the logs, inventories, or journals that I pondered over.   I also found that the clerks who wrote them took a lot of things for granted when they penned the documents.   So we had to use our own savvy to interpret some details.     Anyway,thank you for your input, I appreciate your knowledge of history. 
Hugh Toenjes

[axelp]

I have used thin greased leather for patching and it works great. I know a few others that use it for hunting all the time. In our area it can be dry sometimes and a greased leather patch does not smolder and risk lighting the forest on fire.

K

[flintriflesmith]

Hugh,
Just so this will be clear in the archives six months from now, I have plenty of references to linen for patching in rifles before, during, and after the Rev War. Just no references to leather being used.

Gary