Author Topic: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??  (Read 12975 times)

Offline DaveM

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Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« on: January 30, 2011, 05:04:56 PM »
Hi all - I am looking for thoughts from those more knowledgeable about VA (or further south / west) rifles, from those that have the right references.  I have most of the right PA rifle books but have nothing on VA or points south.

 I have a question specific to early VA, or other southern rifles (say Rev war to before 1800).  I have read various old posts on ALR and understand that Virginia rifles vary greatly by "school" and region as in PA, that this is a complex question, melting pot of styles affected by settler migration, etc., all of which seems reasonable.   I am admittedly completely uneducated about VA guns. 

One old post jumped out at me in particular - it said that some north Virginia rifles could easily be confused with Lehigh County rifles, "especially those made in Hampshire County VA".  Can anyone point me in the direction of documentation / photos of an early VA rifle made with a roman nose (or partial roman nose)  PA that realistically predates about 1800?  Or does this post refer to later pieces? 

Further, is there any consensus that any of the roman nose rifles attributed to PA (specifically any in RCA) are actually VA made?  Thanks for your thoughts.  I am trying to confirm whether roman nose is exclusively a southeast PA phenonenum.

Dave

Offline G-Man

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2011, 05:52:07 PM »
There are a number of Hampshire County guns shown in Dr. Whisker's books with very pronounced curve to the combs.  However, the examples shown might be a bit later than what you are looking for - post-1790s.

Some earlier Virginia rifles exhibit a bit of curve to the comb, but not as pronounced as the later Hampshire County rifles.  The Michael Humble rifle shown on "American Historic Services" webiste has a curved comb, if I recall. Although he is believed to have been working in Kentucky during the Revolution, if I am not mistaken the Humbles came from around Brock's Gap,  Rockingham County Virginia.

Some earlier Virginia rifles in RCA also have a bit of curve to the comb - if you look closely - the brass barrelled rifle that Wallace attributes to Hans Jacob Honaker - and several others.  This slight curve persisted up through later examples made from Botetourt County and down to the south and west through southwest Virginia, up into the late flint era - became quite pronounced on some later examples - and is sometimes referred to as a "soft" comb by those interested in Virginia longrifles.  On early examples of these, the combs start out pretty straight at the buttplate and forward for about 1/3 to 1/2 the length of the comb and then have an ever-so-slight, and slightly inceasing, radius toward the comb, but still a fairly well defined nose - unlike the "roman nose" Lehigh guns.

There are some North Carolina rifles with curved combs as well - by early gunsmiths - the work of Henry Bruner comes to mind (see Bivins "longrifles of North Carolina" and Bill Ivey's new book for North Carolina pieces.)

Guy

Offline tallbear

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2011, 06:17:13 PM »
Dave
Wallace Gusler had an article in Jan 2003 on a 1760's Shenandoah rifle that might be what your talking about.Below is a copy of that rifle that I did.Forgive me for posting a contemporary piece here but I don't have permission to post pics of the original.Is this what your refering to.
Mitch

Offline DaveM

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2011, 06:43:02 PM »
Guy and Mitch, thanks for the leads so far.  Mitch, my question is very general (probably too general) because everything you guys are showing me is new to me.  I'm trying to distinguish a "type" for early Berks / Lehigh rifles from those of VA one characteristically, if it is reasonably possible to do so.    Boy I'd love to see photos of this original 1760's Shenandoah.

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2011, 06:48:09 PM »
I believe Guy is right...The early Hampshire County guns were absent the "Pronounced Roman Nose" ...I myself have wondered when  this style first started in our area..Just glancing I am going to guess about 1820 circa..I think I have seen a few that were earlier, but now I think they may have been restocked...I really don't think they were any "Pronounced Roman Nose" guns made in Hampshire before 1800...Maybe BGC , would have a idea....
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 06:49:00 PM by msmith »

Offline tallbear

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2011, 06:59:17 PM »
Here is a Hampshire County rifle post 1800.The rifle on the top is attributed to William Britton.It is pictured in Dr.Whiskers West Virginia book.I haven't seen any that predate the 1800's.



Mitch

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2011, 08:52:46 PM »
Guy and Mitch, thanks for the leads so far.  Mitch, my question is very general (probably too general) because everything you guys are showing me is new to me.  I'm trying to distinguish a "type" for early Berks / Lehigh rifles from those of VA one characteristically, if it is reasonably possible to do so.    Boy I'd love to see photos of this original 1760's Shenandoah.

Don't just look at the comb line! The Hampshire Co and other VA rifles with a curving comb have much less curve to the bottom of the stock than the Lehigh and Allentown examples.

I'll go out on a long limb here and say that, of those rifles made in the Shanendoah Valley of VA, the ones from Staunton and northward TEND more toward curved comb lines while those from staunton and southward tend to have straighter (more Lancaster like) comb lines. In the middle --Staunton and that area-- we sometimes find both styles coming from the same shop.

Gary
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2011, 10:13:09 PM »
Dave
Wallace Gusler had an article in Jan 2003 on a 1760's Shenandoah rifle that might be what your talking about.

How about this photo of the 1780's Rockbridge rifle from a Gussler display which is on Art and Jan's Contemporary Maker's Blog
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vb_Yo_ELC48/TBoNfZZTtzI/AAAAAAAAdso/ioEOFVmfBGs/s1600/DSCN2990.jpg
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 10:15:49 PM by James Rogers »

Offline tallbear

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2011, 11:23:24 PM »
Thanks James
That's the rifle I was talking about.One of my favorite early rifles!!!

Mitch

Offline DaveM

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011, 11:55:52 PM »
Very interesting!  Looking in particular at the very early pieces, to me there does seem to be a visual difference between the PA / VA curved comb architecture but can't quite put my finger on it.  I really appreciate the images!

My only thought is that perhaps the PA guns, even the early Reading ones, in general have more of an angle to the butt (more angle to the straight portion of the comb line as compared to the barrel line) with a higher comb (more "roman nose") at the front end of the comb.  Whereas the VA guns seem to have a lower comb and more horizontal comb line (straight portion) in relation to the barrel line?  Maybe I am trying to generalize where it is not appropriate but there does seem to be a subtle difference at least with the early ones.  My line of thinking may be way off.  But if there were something to this, the brass barrell rifle looks a little more "PA" to me. 

Offline VP

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2011, 12:42:28 AM »
Dave,

Here is a link to another "southern" rifle with the attributes you are looking for that was on an earlier post.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11336.0

Van

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2011, 02:13:23 AM »
Here is one I used to own that has a very Roman nose.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2206.0
Dennis
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2011, 03:51:49 PM »
I think the one James posted is the same one mentioned from Wallace's article - famous gun known as the "Feather" gun.  Tallbear's rifle that he posted photos sure is a nice copy.  Jim Kibler did a great one too.  Fred Miller had a pattern for this gun - I assume Dave Keck at Knob Mountain has it now(?).  

In my earlier post I said that the Michael Humble rifle has a "curved comb" - that is not really correct - it is more of the very slight "soft-comb" line that I tried to describe in the same post.  On a lot of these guns, you have to look really hard to notice the slight radius to the forward half of the comb.  A lot of people miss it.  This is also something I see a lot of people miss when trying to copy fine English fowlers as well - there has been a prevalent assumption out there that English fowlers have straight triangular lines through the butt - like a Northwest trade gun, but in reality many have an ever-so-slight graceful radius to the comb and toe.

Gary is correct - look beyond the comb - the amount of curve in the toeline, the length of the comb vs. wrist, height of the butt, the shape of the wrist at the nose of the comb, and the shape of the nose of the comb itself all are features that make these guns look ultimately different from Lehigh style rifles.

Guy
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 09:08:34 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline tallbear

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2011, 04:18:18 PM »
Guy
The one that Wallace featured in hisJan 2003 article,James posted, and I copied is not the "Feather Gun". The "feather gun" is a slightly later version from the same shop.Fred Miller did have the pattern of the" Feather Gun" and Reeves has the hardware for it also.There are very few photos of the Feather Gun out there.The two rifles have been confused in the past.

Mitch

Offline G-Man

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2011, 05:52:31 PM »
Thanks Mitch - I thought there was only one out there in existence from that shop.

Great looking rifle!

Guy

Offline DaveM

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2011, 08:33:28 PM »
Great info everyone, really appreciate it!  Your summaries of what to look for are very interesting and helpful and more than I thought I'd see.  To know that there are recognizable and subtle differences to look for, and specifically what they are - exactly what I was looking for!

Offline whitebear

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Re: Early Virginia rifles - roman nose??
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2011, 08:12:33 AM »
Where can I find photos of the "Feather Gun" or do any exist?
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