Question on store bought, original 18th century flint locks.

[Artificer]

OK, folks.... this one could be a really dumb question, so pardon me if it is.

Were original "store bought," 18th century flintlock locks sold in the colonies drilled and tapped in the lockplates for lock screws to hold them in the stocks and if so, were they supplied with overly long screws that may have been at least partially threaded?  Maybe thery were not drilled and tapped for the screws when they were sold? 

The reason I ask is the wide divergence of types of screw threads in those days.  I realize a gunsmith could ream out and re-tap the holes if he didn't have a screwplate with a thread size that fit the hole/thread.
Gus

[Jerry V Lape]

I don't understand how a store bought lock with the holes already tapped would work out often enough to make the concept viable.  The holes in the stocks for the lock bolts are difficult enough to place considering barrels of different thicknesses, tapers, stock web thickness and ramrod holes. Providing a lock already drilled and tapped would require a magician to make all the variables work out I would think.  I know I wouldn't want one. 

If the question is were store bought locks available w/o the lock bolt holes- yes they were, often by the barrel full. 

[Artificer]

Jerry,

You answered the question in that store bought locks would not have been predrilled for the lock bolts.  Thank you.
Gus

[Jim Kibler]

If the plate is case hardened, the bolt holes must be put in first.  Case hardening of lock plates was standard procedure with a lock of any quality and the use of wrought iron.  It seems I recally someone mentioning a reference to locks being sold with bolts.

[Artificer]

If the plate is case hardened, the bolt holes must be put in first.  Case hardening of lock plates was standard procedure with a lock of any quality and the use of wrought iron.  It seems I recally someone mentioning a reference to locks being sold with bolts.

Jim,

I see your point about casehardened lock plates.  Is is possible they "spot annealed" them to drill and tap for the side screws?  I'm thinking heating up a piece of iron and pressing it against both sides of the plate to spot anneal it? 

Gus

[Jim Kibler]

You might be able to temper it back a touch, but you aren't going to anneal it in this manner.  Any way I see it, to soften it to the point where it could be drilled and tapped, a large portion of the plate is going to be softened as well.

[Captchee]

  IMo they would be undrilled just as todays locks are .
 cant really say about 18th century locks though . but  i have worked on many 19th century locks . the plates are  not so hard they cant be drilled and tapped . on the few that were rather hard , a siple drill turned upside down and spun in the  screw location  will normaly soften the area enough to alow for a drill and tap

[Acer Saccharum]

An original English lock:


A ca 1770 Germanic import lock:


Do these locks have pre-drilled holes? I don't know. I have to say if the plates were already case hardened, then you'd certainly have to anneal the spot before drilling. Pre-drilled plates would add to the complication of touchhole alignment, and drilling the ramrod hole. But the lump on tangs on the earlier barrels were smaller than today's profiles, and that would help a little. Generally, the threaded plug was seldom over 1/2" long, and that helps, too.

Interesting thoughts.

Tom

[Eric Kettenburg]

FWIW, and it's opinion only as I don;t know of a period reference, they certainly were sold drilled and tapped.  Drilling a casehardened lockplate w/ a drill press or Dewalt drill w. a carbide bit may be possible now but it sure is not w/ a hand drill.  And why wouldn't they be drilled/tapped first - is it just me?  I drill the holes where they will look right then inlet the lock.  Sometimes the barrel needs to be notched, or the bolt notched, or the breechplug notched, but you see all of this on antique guns.  I know for sure that a good casehardened lock is a b***h to drill and tap even with carbide.

[omark]

speculation only, but it seems to me the locks would not be drilled or hardened. smith get and installs it, then drills and taps, then hardens it himself. hardening would be a process he did almost daily so would be easier than drilling and tapping a hardened lock. this way he could put the holes where he wanted them easily. also he wouldnt have to put in 2 screws or plug the unused hole if he wanted a 1 screw lock.   mark

[Michael]

Sort of goes with the question on buying a finished European barrel. If the barrel was proofed, then the touchole was drilled in the barrel, how else are you going to fire it? Leaves the gunmaker little choice on lock placement when its inlet into the stock.

I agree with those who believe the lock came drilled and tapped for the lock nails, hardening the plate and internals was part of making the lock.

Just my opinion

[Leatherbelly]

Question, Did all plates come completely case hardened or just the critical areas of the plate? One more, How much penetration do you get from case hardening? If it's not that deep, maybe a center punch might get you thru the hardened part and the hand drill could penetrate from there on? Probably dumb questions, sorry.

[Captchee]

Drilling a casehardened lockplate w/ a drill press or Dewalt drill w. a carbide bit may be possible now but it sure is not w/ a hand drill

Really ?? You mean they didn’t have diamond tipped  titanium drill bits back then .
Surly the local “ La old Home Depot”  or “ Francqua True Valuable”  had at least cheep B&D junk
 But truly Im jesting  .

 Maybe they did pre drill and tap . Personally I don’t know .  But it would seem a foolish thing to do . Not only would it raise the cost of the product . It would also require a reasonable standardization  of thread counts ,  thread pitches. As well as a fixed  bolt size .. Not to mention required locations  for an unknown  end use  .

So were gunsmiths making their own bolts and screw or where they also buying those .
 It would seem to me that it would be far simpler to drill and tap for  ones own  threads  and sizes .

 I also think today we  think of hardened steels  which can be hardened to a much higher degree  because we  have the  available tooling
 But why would one  in the 18th century , harden a material to the point it exceeded the ability  of   existing tooling  of that time .

 Myself though I would think that surly somewhere there has been found a ship wreck  that carried a  shipment of locks “other then military “
 Im thinking  there in would lay the answer .

How much penetration do you get from case hardening? If it's not that deep, maybe a center punch might get you thru the hardened part and the hand drill could penetrate from there on? Probably dumb questions, sorry.

 It depends  on how its done and  what material is used . Its entirely possible to  through harden  some steels .
  Imparting more carbon into a mild steel  during a case hardening process doesn’t  harden to any real depth . The   quality has to be their first

 Thickness of the part also plays a part .
 If we look at 18th century locks  and then compare their lock plate thickness to say a late 19th century  Greener lock plate . ,  we find that  many times that later lock plate is much thinner in its cross section .
 I can tell you that  I have re drilled and tapped some   Greener and  Parker locks that were so soft that one could use a cheep soft drill .
 Now that’s not to say there isn’t places  on the plate that are not  very hard . Tumbler holes  for one .

 or say the  locking lip on  the forward edge a Crescent  box lock .
 Very Hard area . But at the same time farther back on the lock plate  can many times  be so soft that  it seems one could just about use a punch  and   drive through the lock plate