Goex Black Powder

[burnsranch]

Have they changed Goex black powder? It does not seem to burn as good as I remember 30 years ago. It could just be the cold weather.

Thanks Russ

[BrownBear]

I dunno about the effects of cold, but I can say with some certainty that there's no change.  I'm currently shooting some DuPont dated 1973, and can't tell it at all from Goex I shot last year.

[Dphariss]

Have they changed Goex black powder? It does not seem to burn as good as I remember 30 years ago. It could just be the cold weather.

Thanks Russ

Actually it is better now than 30 years ago for several reasons.
"Its the water" is one reason.
Dan

[northmn]

There are a few things that effect how a powder may seem to burn.  Patch/ball fit is one as is caliber.  Goex 3f in my 50 does not foul like it does in my 25.  Even though Goex fouls in my 25 it gives higher velocity over the chronograph than Grafs 3f which does not foul as hard or at least loads easier.  Also different lots of the same powder may differ.

DP

[Daryl]

The only difference I see in GOEX from the mid 80's, is today's GOEX produces slightly more speed.  Seems to me it is also shinier with less dust.

[Mad Monk]

The last few years that Mick Fahringer was running GOEX there were a few improvements in the black powder produced by GOEX.

The move to Minden, LA resulted in a change in the purity of the water used to make the powder.  The water at the old Moosic, PA plant, at certain times, was little more than diluted coal mine waste water.

Then in 2000 GOEX's long time supplier of potassium nitrate folded.  GOEX had to go to potassium nitrate imported from Chile since Vicksburg Chemical Company was the last domestic supplier before folding.  The Vicksburg Chemical product was at best a fertilizer grade of potassium nitrate that was not close to the 99.5% technical grade purity that they claimed for it.  The new source is indeed a technical grade with higher purity.

Then after GOEX ceased operations at the Moosic plant their old charcoal supplier ceased production and simply shipped GOEX charcoal they had purchased from some other source.  By 2001 GOEX was able to find a supplier for charcoal that at least equaled the old company's production.


The Moosic produced black powder would sometimes show chemical stability problems directly related to the variation in water quality.  The Vicksburg Chemical Company potassium nitrate contained a small amount of sodium nitrate that caused the powder to be more hygroscopic than it should have been.

So compared to GOEX produced at Moosic the powder coming out of Minden is a good bit better in a number of respects.

As far as "speed", or velocities, the powder is made to a rifle powder burn rate specification.  So the "strength" of the powder produced at either facility would fall within a certain range.

A bit of history in this.  Du Pont sold the Moosic, PA plant and business to GOEX in 1972.  Du Pont had some serious problems meeting military specifications but did not understand why.  During the Viet Nam war there were problems with the powder when used in large-caliber guns as an intermediate primer.  Du Pont could not figure out what was going on and figured it was time to get out of the business.

E. Ogre

[hanshi]

Just my opinion but Goex is all I've used for years.  It gives good speed and seems no dirtier than Dupont and possibly even a bit "cleaner".  "Cleaner" and "black powder" is an oxymoron.

[t.caster]

When did the production (for sale) start in Minden?

[Mad Monk]

When did the production (for sale) start in Minden?

The Minden plant went into production in Feb. 1998.
The initial production used charcoal brought down from Moosic when it closed in June 1997.  When GOEX ordered a new supply of charcoal the velocities took a big dive.
When I looked at 1998 to 2005 production it appeared as if they had slowly tweaked the velocities upwards in that time period.

E. Ogre

[Sam Everly]

Guys i would like to say if you want the true dope on powder, you have the best there is, right here in the Mad Monk!  He is the man to go to on black powder.         

[bgf]

Monk,
Weren't there some perchlorates in older Goex due to the quality of the stock they were using?  Not trying to start an argument, as I am just curious, but I remember reading that here I think.  If so, wouldn't it possibly make the powder a little snappier (as well as more corrosive)?

[Mad Monk]

Monk,
Weren't there some perchlorates in older Goex due to the quality of the stock they were using?  Not trying to start an argument, as I am just curious, but I remember reading that here I think.  If so, wouldn't it possibly make the powder a little snappier (as well as more corrosive)?

Not perchlorate.

Vicksburg Chemical Company produced potassium nitrate by reacting potassium chloride with nitric acid.  That plant went into production around 1968.  Constructed specifically to produce a cheap fertilizer grade of potassium nitrate.  The potassium chloride "feed stock" came out of the salt mines in the Carlsbad, NM area.  The salt deposits in that extensive formation are in layers.  One layer would be mainly potassium chloride with the layer next to it being sodium chloride.  They separated the salts using a flotation process similar to that used in copper ore concentration.  Using a type of soap that was supposed to only attract to the potassium chloride.  But there was some carry over of sodium chloride in the potassium chloride.

So the "feed stock" used by Vicksburg had a small amount of sodium chloride (roughly 0.5%) in with the potassium chloride.  So in the conversion process the sodium chloride was converted to sodium nitrate.  About 0.5% of sodium nitrate in the finished product.  Really messed up the hygroscopic properties of the potassium nitrate.

The particular conversion process used by Vicksburg was not a 100% conversion process.  Under normal reaction rates the conversion of potassium chloride to potassium nitrate was about 97 to 98% efficient.   So there was always a percent or two of potassium chloride going through the system un-reacted and into the finished product.

ANY chloride contained in the potassium nitrate will result in a more corrosive powder residue in the gun.  Remember.  The potassium carbonate (pot ash) produced by powder combustion is in itself slightly corrosive.  Promotes surface rusting in the bore but NOT pitting of the metal.  Chlorides will not only rust the steel but will also cause pit corrosion of the bore.

The presence of 1 or 2% of potassium chloride in the potassium nitrate sort of takes away from powder combustion since it carries no oxygen.  Just ends up as minute crystal scattered over the surfaces of the bore.  Given a little bit of moisture these crystals set up what might be called ideal chloride pit corrosion sites (cells).

I started telling GOEX that back in 1984.  As a result they threatened to sue me numerous times.  but then in 2000 when they had to change to the potassium nitrate made in Chile they quickly realized that I was correct in what I was telling them.  But for 28 years they were paying for a technical grade while being shipped a fertilizer grade.
If you look back in the original Lyman Black Powder Handbook, copyright 1974, you see a write up of the GOEX Moosic, PA powder plant.  When they get into the potassium nitrate subject they comment that they screened their potassium nitrate to remove sticks and stones.  The presence of these sticks and stones were the "proof" that it was indeed a fertilizer grade.

The so-called "sticks" were bits of wood from their wooden processing and storage tanks.  The so-called "stones" were bits of gravel that had originally been in the potassium chloride "feed stock" at Vicksburg Chemical.  Having gone through the conversion process and ending up in the beaded potassium nitrate.

Now if you are spreading this fertilizer grade potassium nitrate on a field the "sticks" and "stones" are no big deal.  But in black powder you better get them out or you will blow up wheel mills on a regular basis.

I purchased a 40 pound bag of Vicksburg Chemical potassium nitrate at a local roller mill when I was looking at all of this.  In addition to the sticks and stones there was a good bit of clay in the beads of potassium nitrate.  More debris carried over from the salt mine flotation process and right through the powder making process.

When I took a pound of this source into work I dissolved it in water.  Filtered out all of the water-insoluble junk and found that it was at best about 95% pure.  NOT the 99.5% purity level that was being claimed for it.


E. Ogre

[bgf]

Thanks for that explanation.  Sorry about confusing perchlorate for chloride  -- there's a reason my chemistry teacher said I would enjoy physics more : ).

[Mad Monk]

Thanks for that explanation.  Sorry about confusing perchlorate for chloride  -- there's a reason my chemistry teacher said I would enjoy physics more : ).

The end result in the gun after shooting is the same.  When a powder includes potassium perchlorate the end product of combustion is potassium chloride from the perchlorate.  The perchlorate simply gives up the oxygen it carries and becomes potassium chloride.

E. Ogre

[Mad Monk]

Thanks for that explanation.  Sorry about confusing perchlorate for chloride  -- there's a reason my chemistry teacher said I would enjoy physics more : ).

Here is another old gem for you.

Back around WWI there was a shortage of potassium nitrate due to war demands.  The Germans than began to produce potassium nitrate from the salt bed salts in that country.  There were then a number of powder plant wheel mill explosions.  It was at first thought that potassium perchlorate was being carried over into the potassium nitrate through the conversion process.
Potassium perchlorate is highly sensitive to impact ignition and frictional ignition.  Two of the reasons it saw use in percussion caps and cartridge primers.  The idea was that any measurable amount in the black powder being worked in the wheel mill could cause ignition of the batch being worked under the wheels.  There is a lot of internal friction within a batch of powder being worked under the wheels.  One of the reasons that a batch starting out in a wheel mill will contain about 10% by weight of water.  The water acts to lubricate the mass of powder being worked and evaporation of the water acts to cool the mass a bit while it is being worked under the wheels.

This is why you don't see black powder "strengthened" with a perchlorate as one sees in some of the subs that do not go through a wheel mill in their processing.


E. Ogre