modified Nipple

[Walker Mountain]

Was my turn as range officer at our club shoot and while assisting a shooter trying to clear his barrel with a Co2 discharger notice a small hole drill in the side of his nipple. After removing the nipple I was able to clear the barrel with the Co2 discharger, is this a common old trick or simple way making a breath hole for clearing the breach? I notice this shooter heavy on the bore butter and his shot patches sometimes burn on the ground. Myself I use spit and own several rifles none having a breath hole and I do just fine and don’t swab between shot. My question is, is it common practice or wise to drill a hole in the side of the nipple?
  Free Trapper.

[Candle Snuffer]

I've seen those nipples with the hole drilled in them.  If I recall I believe it's called a hot-shot nipple (may be wrong on that), but it was or has been claimed they give better ignition.  I don't believe it as I've never had any trouble with ignition with just the plain old non-drilled nipples and I use the RWS Hot Caps, as well as the CCI ones that I ran out of.

I've never seen this "drilled" nipple setup on an original caplock (though I haven't seen all the original caplocks that were made), so maybe it's just another one of those un-needed gimiks that is still floating around out there?

[Fred]

They work as advertised have used in the cap locks for years

[greybeard]

Yes   "Hot shot" nipples it is. When I was an active shooter I always  used them in both rifles and original ML shot guns..   Bob

[Dphariss]

Was my turn as range officer at our club shoot and while assisting a shooter trying to clear his barrel with a Co2 discharger notice a small hole drill in the side of his nipple. After removing the nipple I was able to clear the barrel with the Co2 discharger, is this a common old trick or simple way making a breath hole for clearing the breach? I notice this shooter heavy on the bore butter and his shot patches sometimes burn on the ground. Myself I use spit and own several rifles none having a breath hole and I do just fine and don’t swab between shot. My question is, is it common practice or wise to drill a hole in the side of the nipple?
  Free Trapper.

The "vented" nipple is an answer to a problem created by the use of cheap coil spring locks and loads that produce excessive pressures.
When shooting things like maxi balls or even heavy charges with a RB and the lock is made so there is little force on the nipple with the hammer at rest the pressure will blow the lock to 1/2 or even full cock. Parts may even break. This also greatly increases erosion on steel and even SS nipples I suppose, I never used one of the things. This is a classic sign in MLs that something "wrong". Kinda like sticking cases in a brass suppository gun.  Since good quality locks were out of the question (costs you know) some enterprising individual invented the vented nipple. Pressure was diverted, hammer staid in place, viola, the problem is "fixed". Even better it was "new and improved".  
Venting the nipple magically makes the classic signs of pressure and/or cheap lock disappear. This is its reason for being.
The old good quality locks and good copies are designed to put more pressure on hammer at rest than at full cock. This is not something the makers of production guns either understand or want to spend the money on. A quality leaf spring requires skill to make. A coil spring is made on automatic machines. Then there is the making of the other parts and the (OMG) tuning needed.
So the vented nipple was "needed".  Couple this with a poor breech designs and the things are actually a hazard to the shooter but this is one of those things that is better not discussed as well I suppose.
But for people whose only learning in MLs was buying one at Wal-mart and learning it was powder first then ball it was a Godsend. They could overload all they wanted and the hammer did not blow back. Gun goes "bang" most of the time, life is good, unless he get hit in the face with cap fragments
But you will not find any of the above information in any write up of the "vented" nipple by a gunwriter. They usually don't know this stuff and if they did they would not print it in this context.
Anyone who loves the vented nipple & wants to sharpen their knife over the above statements should spend some time reading first. A good place to start is "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" By James Forsythe. This can be found used sometimes and it is available for download from Google books IIRC. There are others but this gives all the information needed and as a plus covers other things related to percussion hunting rifles and their use back in the days of their final development.

Burned patches are a result of a poor patch/ball fit (first choice), poor patch material, poor crown tearing the patch or a lube that does not lube.  OR the rifle could have been used with corrosive substitutes and its cutting the patch on the pits. There is no way to know from this distance.

Dan

[Daryl]

I tried hotsot nipples in my .69 (exceptionally accurate rifle) and across the board of loads, achieved poorer accuracy when using them.  Due to the extra gas loss at the breach, they reduce speed along with the 'pressure vented' - which stands to reason.  Increased powder charge is needed with them to match the speed of a 'solid' nipple.

They may be necessary in poorly made locks as noted by Dan & useful for that reason, otherwise, not. imho

[Al Lapp]

Interesting thread. I believe a couple of my caplocks have hotshot nipples. But considering I didn't buy my muzzleloaders as target rifles I didn't give it much thought.    Al

[omark]

seems that one advertized feature of the hot shot was it would split the cap, making it easier to remove. i put one in for that reason and it worked, though i now know smaller caps might be better, but they were hard to remove when unfired and would sometimes cushion the hammer fall enough (due to not being seated far enough) to cause a missfire.  seems to me on my guns that the recess in the hammer nose is deep enough to contain the cap frags, as that was a concern of mine when i first saw it. it also was supposed to allow a little air leakage at ignition so the flame was allowed to go forward easier. same theory as an old style oil bath air cleaner on the old cars. i put one in yrs ago and it seemed to work pretty good, so i left it. maybe im all wet, but thats my story and im stickin' to it.     mark

[Roger Fisher]

I had tried one such yrs ago and discarded the thing; but for the life of me can't recall why   I'm noticeing more of that recently.

[BrentD]

Mark, you are exactly right.  They split the cap more reliably and the cap is more likely to fall off the hammer as a result.  Using a hotshot will give you the same point of aim, the same velocity of a chronograph and using one means nothing with regards to something being "wrong" with your rifle. 

I have had them in the past and will buy another for the Hawken I'm building now. If they bother ya, don't use one but thinking they are some indication of something being "wrong" is just plain wrong. 

[Dphariss]

Removing caps from nipples, besides being an extremely dangerous practice while in progress if they fit right is also a potential cause of accidental discharges.  Once removed the gun is little safer and may in fact be more likely to produce an A.D.  than a capped nipple.
The reason is that the compound in very sensitive to any impact or friction. If some of this compound is left on the nipple when the cap is removed almost anything can cause it to detonate. Such as setting the hammer in the nipple or having the nipplemove slightly on the nipple a minute or an hour or a week afterwards.
I know of no way to make a percussion gun safe once its been capped other than firing it and I would NEVER pull a load from a gun that had ever had a cap on the nipple.
If these seems pretty extreme suit up with weldiing gloves, long sleeved heavy shirt or two and a full face coverage mask. Hold a cap and scratch the compound with a common straight  pin or sewing needle. Yeah I did this once when I was a kid. Once was plenty.

Some one posted on one of the ML sites that his dad or someone he knew  had shot themselves in the arm or wrist  when they pulled an uncapped rifle-musket from a car barrel first   and it fired. Of course this was laid to "static electricity" but static will not ignite BP. so there is only one other option unless a gremlin stubbed his cigarette out in the nipple.
Dan

[omark]

dan, in colo its illegal to transport a caplock long gun in a car while capped and sometimes we change hunting areas or finish the day with a loaded gun and want to return to camp. while decapping we always have the muzzle in a safe direction and after decapping we always examine the nipple.also we dont pull a gun from a car with the muzzle pointed towards ourselves and make sure no one is near the door on the far side of the truck. i also usually put the leather cap holder thats tied to my triggerguard between cap and hammer. ive been hunting with caplocks since 1970 and havent had an AD yet, not saying it cant happen, but if it does ill bet no one is hurt, except for the condition of my underwear, of course.  mark

[Dphariss]

dan, in colo its illegal to transport a caplock long gun in a car while capped and sometimes we change hunting areas or finish the day with a loaded gun and want to return to camp. while decapping we always have the muzzle in a safe direction and after decapping we always examine the nipple.also we dont pull a gun from a car with the muzzle pointed towards ourselves and make sure no one is near the door on the far side of the truck. i also usually put the leather cap holder thats tied to my triggerguard between cap and hammer. ive been hunting with caplocks since 1970 and havent had an AD yet, not saying it cant happen, but if it does ill bet no one is hurt, except for the condition of my underwear, of course.  mark

This is one reason I have flintlocks.
Here is something similar.
A friend had a misfire on a perc revolver years back, repeated strikes no joy. Cap was stuck on.
With the cylinder out of the gun so he could reach it he pulled the cap off with a pair of needle nosed pliers. As the cap came off the chamber fired. He took good precautions BUT while concentrating on the cap one finger protruded past the cyl face and when it fired the gas pressure cut a relatively large chunk of skin off the finger. No impact but the compound fired anyway. Friction or the pliers put enough crush on the compound as the cap came off ?
He was working for a well experienced BP gunsmith at the time as was certainly not inexperienced himself. They revolver was very reliable and misfires were virtually unknown.
Having a cap leave compound on the nipple and causing an AD is a 1 in a million maybe (?). But these things have a way of happening at the worst possible time if they do happen.

This really is a quandary for the very reasons you cite. Other than only using good quality caps like RWS and hoping for the best I have no easy answer.

Would make an interesting test to see if it could be done on command.

Dan

[BrentD]

Frankly, I find flinters to be more dangerous that percussion rifles.  It is no problem to fire a flinter with no priming powder in the pan.  It may not go off every time, but often enough that I do not like carrying a charged flinter in my vehicle at all.  I'd much rather take my chances with a cap gun.

[Daryl]

Each to his own, just be careful out there and observe safe gun handling practises.  I suspect the cheap Italian caps in the red plastic 'tins' might be the most sensitve - as the compound appears to be not sealed in any way.

With RWS caps, the compound it sealed, but of coruse, when capping, the 'pellet' could be crushed which wil sensitize it.

CCI caps, the ones with the foil over the 'pellet' of compound are prone to loasing this 'pellet'. This has happened in several tins of caps I've purchased.

I've been shooting cap guns since 1972 and have never had an accidental discharge with one that I can recall.   I have many times, uncapped the gun then placed it in back the vehicle, or uncapped it and hung it back up on the mantle waiting for it's next hunting trip, loaded, but uncapped of course.  With the RWS caps, or the CCI's, I've never had one leave compound on the nipple, but I suppose it could happen - most anything can, just as in the firing a flinter without priming. I've never seen it happen, but that certainly doesn't mean it can't.

[Standing Bear]

Frankly, I find flinters to be more dangerous that percussion rifles.  It is no problem to fire a flinter with no priming powder in the pan.  It may not go off every time, but often enough that I do not like carrying a charged flinter in my vehicle at all.  I'd much rather take my chances with a cap gun.

Empty pan, frizzen open and hammer down!

Re original question.  As I recall Hot-Shot ad was to get consistnet pressures and SD MV of a flinter.  Ties with Dphariss's comment about over loaded charges and heavy projectiles.

TC

[BrentD]

Frankly, I find flinters to be more dangerous that percussion rifles.  It is no problem to fire a flinter with no priming powder in the pan.  It may not go off every time, but often enough that I do not like carrying a charged flinter in my vehicle at all.  I'd much rather take my chances with a cap gun.

Empty pan, frizzen open and hammer down!

Absolutely.  And a pick in the vent to boot.  Could always put a plug in an uncapped perc gun of course.

[Dphariss]

Frankly, I find flinters to be more dangerous that percussion rifles.  It is no problem to fire a flinter with no priming powder in the pan.  It may not go off every time, but often enough that I do not like carrying a charged flinter in my vehicle at all.  I'd much rather take my chances with a cap gun.

Yes a flintlock will fire with no priming, its the sign of a good lock.
But a human or some similar creature must intentionally cock the lock, close the frizzen and pull the trigger. This is hardly an accidental discharge.
While it can happen accidentally the human still has to make it ready to fire by placing the cock in one of the cocked postions and closing the frizzen.
If a percussion gun has cap residue on the nipple it is impossible to make it safe.
The PROBABILITY of an AD is greater with the uncapped percussion or during uncapping than the cock down friizzen open flintlock. How high is the probability? I do not know. This is why I said it would make a good test subject for some enterprising type with a lot of time on his hands..

All old firearms systems have their problems compared to a late 20th century design. They are more hazardous than shooting a modern rifle, shooting a Sharps or a Remington Rolling block is technically less "safe" than shooting a new bolt action simply due to there 19th century DESIGN features. So when shooting archaic firearms designs there is increased risk. Its a risk we choose to accept when shooting old designs. How risky is it? Its very low so long as proper gun handling is observed and the mechanics of the various processes are understood.

I have never heard of a flintlock firing with the frizzen open and the cock down.
The removal of a cap from a percussion gun is far more dangerous than depriming a flint gun but people do it all the time without incident. I have never liked doing it since becoming an adult. I did a lot of stuff when I was a kid that I would not do today, partly from what I learned as a kid. I have not shot a percussion gun off the range in so long that I don't recall how I used to manage this I know I decapped them but I have not shot a percussion
As I previously pointed out it can be related to how the cap was made (think foil lined Remington), to the nipple fit and possibly the phase of the moon, state of the tide and what side of the bed "Murphy" got up on that morning. It is obvious from the number of people shooting percussion guns with no problems, including thousands of rounds myself, that its very rare.

I never advocated people not using percussion guns. It is not my intention to frighten people into selling all their MLs and buying new .270s. But there are things that people need to be aware of. Its like knowing how the safety works or how to properly load. Its one of the things that needs to be in ML shooters "knowledge base".
For example:
One should not snap a flintlock after he has pulled the load and shaken out "all the powder".
So don't snap your flintlock that was unloaded in this manner with the vent pointed up and looking in it. You may make whatever assumptions you like as to how I figured that out    The rifle was "unloaded" after all and I foolishly checked the spark. I watched the spark go in the vent.  It was likely only 1 gr  of powder by weight, probably much less, but it was enough to make a "learning experience".

Oh! I meant "some FL shooter" did this

Dan

[omark]

dan, when i pull a cap, i just use my fingers, or, if its stuck, i use a knife and push up on the skirt of the cap. again, pointed in a safe direction and it always scares me a little. and its easy enough to do things without thinking, especially when tired. kind of down this line of thinking, when hunting in  colo many yrs ago we ran into 3 or 4 elk hunters from back east. we got to visiting and one of them told the story of a friend of theirs. the guy was horse back hunting and was getting ready to go back to camp. he was putting his rifle in the scabbard on the horse when it hung up a little, well, he pushed a little harder, which was mistake #2, because apparently the hammer was the hangup. mistake #1 being not having decapped his rifle. well, #3 became immediately apparent as he had put his hand over the end of the scabbard to support it. 1 finger was immediately blown off. he was apparently very experienced with ML and guns in general. as it apparently happened later in the day, i assume  he was tired and possibly not used to horse hunting. but, i can see how that could be done very easily, just glad it wasnt any more serious.  mark

[38_Cal]

I've used the Hot Shot nipples in the past, but found that they didn't always give me the accuracy that a solid one did in my rifles.  I started shooting muzzle loaders in 1971, and shot in matches into the '90's.

Something that I do as a matter of course with my percussion hunting guns when they are loaded but uncapped, is to either set the hammer down with a neoprene faucet washer over the nipple or set it down on a piece of 1/8" thick leather.  Which I use is dependent on the depth of the cup in the hammer nose...a deep cup can take a faucet washer, a shallow one works with leather.  This keeps the striking surface of the hammer off of the nipple completely.  Also, on my flint guns, if I empty the pan to move across a fence, or return to my truck, the vent pick is in place to block it and the cock is down and frizzen open. 

David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA

[longcruise]

I used the hot shots exclusively for a long time but did not find any advantage or disadvantage accuracy wise.  They will split a cap nicely if that is a problem with your gun.

The Trso non vented nipples work just as well and the flash holes seem to resist corrosion better.

I think the hot shot is an attempt to imitate/duplicate the practice of venting a percussion drum on the forward side which was also supposed to improve ignition.

[doulos]

Ive used those nipples (tc Hot Shot) alot and have just taken arrival of some Ampco bronze and stainless nipples from TOTW.  Ill try to see if there is any difference in accuracy But the  guns i use them in allready shoot well. But now you guys got me very curious to see if there is a difference.

[Feltwad]

I remember way back in the 1970s, there was on the market a Italian cap made of brass , it worked OK if the lock had a strong main spring.
 I once witnessed a shooting companion   involved with a discharge from one of these caps that did not fire , when he removed the cap the compound was crushed on the top of the nipple, he automatic began to remove it using his finger nail and  the gun fired ,luckily the gun was pointing in a safe area but  he got such a shock it took him a while too recover.
Feltwad