nocks breech

[yip]

  just what is the purpose of a nocks breech? is it strictly cosmitic?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Nenry Nock's patent breech is for hooked breech plugs, and is a way to move the charge of black powder right down to the vent.  It came about toward the end of the flint era when smiths were trying to come up with new and improved ways to shorten ignition time for shooting flying. And competition for business was fierce.

[roundball]

  just what is the purpose of a nocks breech? is it strictly cosmitic?

Faster ignition...and my experience with today's slightly modifed versions of that has been excellent.
Todays versions are usually referred to as a chambered breeches, and they eliminate the little horizontal antechamber that was in Nock's design...another side benefit sems to be that they burn extremely clean, so much so that I don't even own a vent pick, much less carry one...here's a brief in Greener's book on Nock's Patent Breeches:

http://books.google.com/books?id=obxNmpITIPkC&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=%22Nock's+patent+breech%22&source=bl&ots=pm3DA1ZeGB&sig=0eNfR-E_9ItbKQnlQRmLIGdZ3LM&hl=en&ei=aXhMTbqtNNDSgQftnKH0Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Nock's%20patent%20breech%22&f=false

[Dphariss]

The nock is not necessarily the fastest. I made one and sent to Larry Pletcher. It was slightly slower than a plain breech.
Is not slow by any means but what it really is is consistent.
It has a lower SD than the other breeches.
I have noticed this in the rifle I made a nock breech for. It is very very consistent.
Is  this important? It would have been very important for the guns most Nocks were used in, shotguns. It would make wings shooting easier.
While velocity was not part of Larry's test W. Greener in testing velocity by shooting over a flat surface stated that the only breech that shot farther than the Nock was (of course) his design. So if it produced more velocity would this get the charge out the muzzle faster than a plain breech? Meaning that the velocity may have negated the difference in breech/vent speed. ??

The Nock does have a disadvantage. Powders that foul excessively will plug the internal passage (3/16" in my version) in 3 shots and require working powder through the vent to shoot it out.
Any powder that produces large flakes of fouling in the bore will cause this.
Using Swiss I have never had a problem even with fairly long strings of shots 30 or so.
So we have to ask "what does this indicate?"
It tells me that the powder used by the English by 1780 or so may have had pretty good fouling characteristics.
But its hard to judge powder quality in 1780 at this date.
Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I don't think we should be comparing the ignition times of a plain fowler with an ordinary breech plug and let's say, a Chambers' 3/8" vent liner, and the Nock patent breech.  If I had a choice, and wanted great ignition, I'd opt for the simple fowler.  But if I had to decide which English gun to buy - both with hooked patent breeches, but one with a different channel to the vent than the Nock, I'd take the Nock breech plug for it's reliability, just as Dan says.

[Naphtali]

Please identify link(s) that illustrate and describe Nock and Manton patent breeches. The link to Greener's book reported it is out of stock.

If there are substantive differences between Nock and Manton patent breeches, please identify them. And if one is demonstrably superior, which is it?

[northmn]

I used a slight modification of a Nocks breech to breech a modern shotgun barrel where I wanted to use a longer breech plug.  I was able to use a plug of about 1 3/8 inch so as to preserve some barrel length.  The chamber requires the use of a about 50-60 grains of powder minimum, but it is a 12 gauge so that is really not so bad.  As Dan says, fouling is a problem as is cleaning, nor is it noticibly faster tahn my other breechs.   Another point about the Nock breech.  In its day on English doubles, the breeches were recessed where the lock was inletted so as to make the width f the guns slimmer, which in turn, made for easier cocking of both barrels.   By reducing the bore size in that area, the ability to recess the breeches was enabled.

DP

[Dphariss]

Please identify link(s) that illustrate and describe Nock and Manton patent breeches. The link to Greener's book reported it is out of stock.

If there are substantive differences between Nock and Manton patent breeches, please identify them. And if one is demonstrably superior, which is it?

I have never seen the "Manton" breech other than the RECESSED breech. I don't think there was any other I.E. no special interior.

The Nock breech is the one on the right.


The recessed breech looks like  this this being an exterior feature

The interior of this breech is Nock. Though the vent liner is better than the one illustrated being more like the White Lightning.

When thinking of flint "patent" breeches and other such things one must remember that circa 1790 that there were and immense number of Patents issued or applied for in the line of firearms. To the point that the newspapers were featuring editorial cartoons on the subject.
Frankly other than the demonstrated advantage in CONSISTENCY of the Nock I do not believe that there is ANY massive advantage in ignition assuming the vent liner is properly done. With this is mind for pure speed it would appear nothing beats the "plain"  breech. The breech on the right of the illustration is probably as bad as it gets with the vent it has installed.
But I have a flint with patent breeches with a 3/8" channel back to the vent and a good vent liner. Its not as fast as my recessed Nock equipped rifle with the copy of a Manton lock circa 1815 but the speed difference is surely in the lock.

Dan

[Don Getz]

A nock breech may be fine, might even be slightly fast than a plain, regular breech....BUT...you will end  up with something
that will be a PITA to clean, much like a Thompson-Center.   Probably have to flush it out to clean it.............Don