Author Topic: Baking Soda  (Read 18298 times)

George F.

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Baking Soda
« on: October 11, 2008, 08:11:20 PM »
We all know how corrosive black powder residue can be. Has anybody ever though of running a patch down the bore with some solution of baking soda on it to neutralize it? Just curious as if it was beneficial,   ...Geo.

Offline Dan

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2008, 11:32:30 PM »
Neutralize what? ???

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2008, 01:17:27 AM »
Actually get rid of the bp residue is the object and the way to go! :)

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2008, 04:51:25 AM »
George has a point.  The major corrosive in the black powder residue is acid formed when moisture reacts with the sulfur residues.  He may be onto something in that a mildly base solution used to clean the barrel could have a beneficial effect.  This having been said, removal of the residue eliminates the root cause as proven by well cleaned rifles not having pitting problems.  George, have you tried a mild baking powder and water solution to see if it makes a difference? 

54ball

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2008, 07:59:17 AM »
 While this makes sense you need to consider that baking soda being a base ,a very mild one, and BP residue being slightly acidic, they would seem to cancel each other and be neutral.  Care must be taken not to go to far towards the base because too much base will speed the oxidation process just like too much acid.
   A good example is batteries.  A lead acid car battery leakage will cause enough corrosion to ruin an inner fender.  An alkaline D cell leakage will destroy a flash light.  One is an acid the other is a base.
 While it may neutralize the mild acid of BP I really think it is too much trouble for too little gain. IMHO ;)
 What causes rust is oxidation.  Oxidation is in a sense just slow burning like rusting.   A fast oxidation process is fire.  Water is used to extinguish fire, it cools the burning material below the ignition point and smothers the material preventing oxygen in the gas state from completing the chemical chain reaction. Stopping this rapid oxidation or combustion.
   Oil acts on the slow oxidation just like water does in the rapid oxidation.  A good gun oil will coat the naked steel that will rust all by itself even in the "neutral state". The oil will also soak into residual powder fouling preventing oxygen in the form of moisture completing the chemical chain reaction causing rust.
    Oil and water don't mix.  Water will always repel oil.  That is why it is very important to make sure all moisture or water is out of the barrel.  The naked spots where the water was will rust.
    The bottom line is to make sure your barrel is dry before you oil it.  It would be better to oil a fouled barrel well than not to oil a clean barrel at all.             

Offline awol

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2008, 02:00:34 PM »
I use washing soda in water to clean my rifle,  1/4 teaspoon w.s. to 1 cup water.  W. s. is stronger than baking s.  Don't get it in your eyes, don' let it lay on the stock finish for long. It might sting your hands, but at that mix at least it doesn't bother me.
Alec

Offline Dan

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2008, 08:17:53 PM »
Not wanting to sound like a heretic but there is apparently no acid created in the combustion process of BP.   If there is a process of degradation after the fact which creates acid, I'm all ears...er, eyes. ???  I would like to see the equations which testify to this belief if anyone has it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

Quote
A simple, commonly cited, chemical equation for the combustion of black powder is

    2 KNO3 + S + 3 C → K2S + N2 + 3 CO2.

A more accurate, but still simplified, equation is[6]

    10 KNO3 + 3 S + 8 C → 2 K2CO3 + 3 K2SO4 + 6 CO2 + 5 N2.

The products of burning do not follow any simple equation. One study's results showed that it produced (in order of descending quantities): 55.91% solid products: potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate, potassium sulfide, sulfur, potassium nitrate, potassium thiocyanate, carbon, ammonium carbonate. 42.98% gaseous products: carbon dioxide, nitrogen, carbon monoxide, hydrogen sulfide, hydrogen, methane, 1.11% water.

Black powder formulations where the nitrate used is sodium nitrate tend to be hygroscopic, unlike black powders where the nitrate used is saltpetre. Because of this, black powder which uses saltpetre can be stored unsealed and remain viable for centuries provided no liquid water is ever introduced. Muzzleloaders have been known to fire after hanging on a wall for decades in a loaded state, provided they remained dry. By contrast, powder that uses sodium nitrate, which is typically intended for blasting, must be sealed from moisture in the air to remain stable for long times.

Sulfuric acid is H2SO4..................

Dave Faletti

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2008, 03:52:42 AM »
Just flush out the powder residue.  Patch lubricants need to be removed else they will trap residue.  Adding an electrolyte whether it be from an acid, base or salt just increases the rate of corrosion.  If the presumption of an acidic combustion byproduct is the corrosive agent, adding the perfect quantity of a base results in a salt being produced as the end product.  Also remember the powder doesn't burn completely so you start and end with salt in the bore just from the powder.  I think you guys are over thinking it.

George F.

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2008, 04:21:02 AM »
Well, I personally haven't tried it. I was just thinking that every time I take a gun out to shoot, I run a patch or two, or more and find the patch comes out with rust residue on it. Maybe I'm just not cleaning very good.  After I'm through shooting I pour solvent down the bore after I plug the touch hole and let it sit for a few minutes then pour it out. Then it's a matter of running a solvent soaked patch and then a dry clean patch down the bore. I repeat this until I don't see any thing on the patch changing patches constantly. Then a gun oil soaked patch down a few times. But I haven't tried a baking soda patch. I just though I'd see if  any body has tried it.  ...Geo.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2008, 06:29:18 AM »
There is no significant acid so there is nothing to neutralize. WETTING the fouling activates it and using soda water will not change this and as previously posted might make it worse.
All that is needed is water and maybe some wetting agent, dish soap, window cleaner etc.
The problem with BP fouling is that some lube components can cook with the fouling and make a substance that is very hard to remove. Petroleum oils are bad for this. Some animal fats will do this and probably some vegetable fats as well.
So if you have difficulty removing the fouling and/or it requires strong solvents, petroleum distillate or such to remove then you might change patch lubes and see if this helps.
This cooked on gunk can promote rust since it contains corrosive components and/or it may wipe out to some extent when wet with preservative oil for a few days and make brown/black patches.
The only way to prevent bore damage ti to remove the corrosive elements and water does were well unless the is some fouling/lube mix concrete in there some place.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

northmn

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2008, 03:26:22 PM »
It seems like I often get rust after cleaning, but find that if I reswab with an oil patch the next day it stops.  I think I just do not get things dry enough to prevent rust.  As to neutralizing acids, whether present or not, sopas are supposed to be basic and I ahve still gotten rust.  I always thought that the rust was due to the fact that BP is a salt based formula.

DP

keweenaw

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2008, 07:30:40 PM »
Getting things dry can be a trick.  Most cotton patching material, unless you prewash it, isn't particularly water absorbent.  Lately I've switched to using pieces of one of those fiber reinforced paper towels sold as "rags in a box" to dry my bore after I clean it with wet patches.  The first one of those will come out of the barrel damp even after the GI cleaning patches I had been using were coming out dry.

I see no advantage to trying to neutralize residue in a barrel since what you want to do is remove it and it's all water soluble anyway.

Tom

Offline Dan

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2008, 07:19:47 AM »
Cotton cloth usually has seizing in it from the textile mill. Sort of like starch but a bit more durable.  If you run it through the washer 2-3 times it will remove that and become much more absorbent.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2008, 06:10:50 PM »
Getting things dry can be a trick.  Most cotton patching material, unless you prewash it, isn't particularly water absorbent.  Lately I've switched to using pieces of one of those fiber reinforced paper towels sold as "rags in a box" to dry my bore after I clean it with wet patches.  The first one of those will come out of the barrel damp even after the GI cleaning patches I had been using were coming out dry.

I see no advantage to trying to neutralize residue in a barrel since what you want to do is remove it and it's all water soluble anyway.

Tom

Buy heavy diaper flannel from the fabric store. GI patches are not meant for use with water based cleaners.
I WD-40 the bore once fairly dry than dump it out then wipe pretty dry then oil. The wd-40 will lift the water off the steel and most will wash ways as the wd-40 is drained/wiped out.

Dan
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Daryl

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2008, 07:28:20 PM »
Ditto Dan. Works for me and I see no reason to complicate things further by dreaming up 'other' fixes for problems that don't exist.

Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2008, 06:49:45 AM »
Not saying this is the "BEST" way but I always figured that the hot water with a little dab of Dawn detergent in it made a pretty good solvent for BP. The dawn will help with any grease or oiley res and breaks down the surface tension of the water so it cleans better. Never liked WD40 much but Corrosion-X or ACF-50 (aircraft supply stuff) is great at getting into the pores of any metal to stop electrolysis. It doesnt have to be flooded on either so you don't have to clean much before shooting.
  Great to see the new forum old timers and newbies.
                                                                                     Cliff
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2008, 10:34:24 AM »
Sulfuric acid is produced from sulfur, oxygen and water via the contact process. I don't understand how it is possible to burn black powder without creating sulfuric acid. You have the sulfur you have the oxygen and the water is present in the air.
  In any event I always put baking soda in my lube and in my cleaning water. It makes the lube water soluble and neutralizes any acid that [MIGHT] be present.  It is logical that if the residue eats steel and smells like sulfur it is sulfuric acid.  Maybe not but close enough for me.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 06:20:16 AM by jerrywh »
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2008, 05:29:26 PM »
Actually, we found by accident at Friendship this year that plain Club Soda works very well.  We normally use bottled water to clean the guns in camp, but ran out.  One of the guys had some club soda, so we used it.  It really fizzed the fouling out.

Club soda really works for removing stains from your carpet too; ie, pet stains like urine and @#$%/!!, blood, and other organic stains.

Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Daryl

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2008, 06:16:04 PM »

Club soda really works for removing stains from your carpet too; ie, pet stains like urine and @#$%/!!, blood, and other organic stains.



; Or you could just bury the rug with the body?
; As to Cliff's suggestion that there is a lot of cleaning before shooting when using WD40 - not so. Sometimes a single dry patch is run down and out- ready to shoot, or I simply load and shoot with no wiping. I've never had a missfire or missed shot on the first shot.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 06:17:57 PM by Daryl »

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2008, 08:57:19 PM »
Daryl.
  I think you have it figured out . He killed the dog for pooping in the front room. Right??
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Leatherbelly

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2008, 03:36:17 AM »
  I've never tried club soda on carpet but it's not bad on ice (combined with a single malt!)

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2008, 07:11:49 PM »
Quote
I think you have it figured out . He killed the dog for pooping in the front room.

Jerry,
Actually I used the pet reference to be politically correct.  It applies equally to all the drinkers on the board who puke on the carpet and all the old guys who have problems with their "Depends" leaking.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Leatherbelly

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2008, 05:42:54 AM »
  ROFLMFAO!!!

Daryl

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2008, 06:08:51 PM »
Careful LB - you may get some leaks.

Leatherbelly

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Re: Baking Soda
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2008, 09:57:54 PM »
   I've been told that "Depends" hold up to 30 pounds! Yikes,that's like three gallons! Maybe better have some "Club Soda" around when Daryls comes for a visit. You know,cleaning up his leaks!! Maybe he likes Scotch and soda  too? ;D ;D
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 09:59:50 PM by Leatherbelly »