Author Topic: Flintlock accuracy  (Read 23146 times)

Offline doulos

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Flintlock accuracy
« on: February 07, 2011, 03:59:16 PM »
I'm getting ready to order my first flintlock. And being ignorant about flintlocks and having only a couple of shots under my belt I have to ask what to many here might seem silly seeing that most here prefer flintlocks. 
For those of you who shoot both flinters and caplocks do you find it harder to achieve accuracy with your flinter or caplock? If so why?

Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2011, 04:35:07 PM »

Your accuracy will be worse at first until you learn to ignore the pan flash and keep your eyes on the sight picture, and until you learn to adjust your shooting technique to maintain your follow-through after the shot goes off.   And,  there's more stuff to be finicky about on a flinter - when to knap or replace the flint,  checking that the jaws are holding the flint tight, etc, priming the right amount so you don't get a slow-fire.   In that sense, it probably is easier to get consistent performance (and an improvement in group size) shot-to-shot out of a percussion lock than a flint lock.   However, you can learn how often to knap, how best  to prime, etc.

Barrel, powder charge, ball, patch lube being the same, you'd expect identical performance ballistically.

The flint ignition system has a slower lock time than percussion, and I believe it has a bit more variance than percussion (look up some of Larry Pletcher's timing tests), and that difference can't help accuracy, but I don't believe it measurably hurts it.   The trick is getting a good performing flint lock that gives consistent lock times from shot to shot.   

SCL

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2011, 04:48:54 PM »
One thing to remember. Yes, a flintlock has a slower lock time than a caplock.  However, a caplock requires a full cycle in order to fire, ie the hammer must hit the cap on then nipple. A flintlock does not have this limitation. A spark needs to hit the prime..that's it.  I'm certain my gun fires long before the cock/hammer comes to rest. For this reason, I don't believe that "slower lock time" is an issue for a well tuned flintlock.




northmn

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2011, 05:44:31 PM »
When I shot in competition at bullseye targets it seemed like my scores were not significantly different using a flintlock or a caplock.  That was once I had shot a flintlock for a while.  One of the clubs at that time quit having a seperate flintlock match as the flintlock shooters were winning against percussions anyway.  Flintlocks take a bit more practice to get used to, but once you do they are not hard to shoot.  I noticed last summer/fall I kind of got back in the flintlock groove when I started calling my shots.   Personally I recommend a smaller caliber when one starts out with a flintlock as then its easier to concentrate on shooting technque.   My 25 helped quite a bit.  Also seems like one shoots a percussion a little better after shooting a flintlock.   

DP

Daryl

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2011, 06:34:10 PM »
I'd like to agree with Bob - but don't. Larry's test prove the time involved - what everyone can feel and see. The flint guns are slower.  During the igntion cycle, - time lag, if you will, the gun can move off the target or off the exact spot you are trying to hit. For hunting, or defence in the past, that wasn't a problem.  For deliberate accuracy on target with a handheld rifle, it is.

Some people, like Taylor, are exceptional off hand shots. For many years, he has only shot flintlocks and thus can be beaten. I roo the time he uses that .62 Hawken he is now completing, for regular competition shooting.

I could beat him when I used a cap gun - the .69 or .58 double rifle - they are easy to shoot accurately, compared to flinters - but those days are probably over. in my opinion, of course.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2011, 10:00:03 PM »
I can't tell a difference between percussion and flint scores.  I shoot the same regardless which one I take to the range.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2011, 01:32:32 AM »
But, Daryl...if you agreed with me, you might shoot flinters better. Believing is the key !     Flint is faster, flint is faster....use the force  ;D

Daryl

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2011, 01:52:23 AM »
Caplock is the only thing faster than my split-second-delayed flinch.  Sometimes even that isn't fast enough! ;D

anecdotal case in point

Some time before I was 'into' shooting flint rifles, I shot a flintlock rifle that "was faster than a CapLock" off the bench, hand held, resting one hand on a bag.  It had a 'custom tuned lock" that I guarantee is faster than your caplock".  I shot a 3 shot about a 2", 3 shot group with it, exactly 4" to 5" low at 4 o'clock. 

You see, being a right handed person and a quite consistant 'bench' shooter, I was flinching them low and right - exactly correct for a right handed person.  My .69, with it's "apparently" slower caplock, had just shot a 1" hole for 5 shots, same range, same bags, yet it's ignition was quick enough to beat that delayed flinch I have.  I fired a few more from the flinter in testing poi, and when I didn't flinch, they were right dead centre.   Any lack of follow through concentration and they'd be 4" to 5" low, at 4 o'clock.  Considering that with most flinters, that low left poi would usually put me 5" to 6" low right at 50 yards, I'm thinking that 'custom' rifle's lock did indeed have quick ignition, for a slow-poke flintlock, that is.  This was late 80's. I'd guess.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2011, 03:36:35 AM »
Being an old chunk gun shooter, I can't recall a flint shooter winning the Alvin York shoot.  Correct me if I'm wrong.   But
then, on the other hand, remember how we conduct the shoot.   At least 100 shooters on the line at one time, and the
line stays open until everyone has fired his shot at his target....no time limit.   Would you believe, the only thing that holds up the line is a cap shooter that can't get his gun to go off.   A flint gun is much easier to maintain since you have
time between relays to clean your gun, wipe the pan out, clean the touch-hole, etc.    In a cap gun, you must keep that
hole from the cap down to the powder open, which occassionally can get clogged up.   To each his own, personally, I liked
my flint with a late ketland lock and a white lightning touch hole liner......very dependable.............Don

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2011, 03:46:36 AM »
Being an old chunk gun shooter, I can't recall a flint shooter winning the Alvin York shoot.  Correct me if I'm wrong.   But
then, on the other hand, remember how we conduct the shoot.   At least 100 shooters on the line at one time, and the
line stays open until everyone has fired his shot at his target....no time limit.   Would you believe, the only thing that holds up the line is a cap shooter that can't get his gun to go off.   A flint gun is much easier to maintain since you have
time between relays to clean your gun, wipe the pan out, clean the touch-hole, etc.    In a cap gun, you must keep that
hole from the cap down to the powder open, which occassionally can get clogged up.   To each his own, personally, I liked
my flint with a late ketland lock and a white lightning touch hole liner......very dependable.............Don
Come on youngster, you used the "I liked" as in the past tense.  Upbeat man upbeat ;D

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2011, 02:32:26 PM »
The study of a flintlock's ability to ignite the pan or the barrel before the flint edge comes to rest is one of those things that high speed video can address.  Since 2007 we have has two sessions at Friendship with an Olympus rep and a great high speed camera.  In that time we have filmed around 80 locks of about every type, including original Mantons, many modern ones - stock, highly tuned, and hand made.  We have yet to video a lock that ignited the pan before the flint edge stopped.  I have counted frames from the time the flint stopped until the pan ignited and found that mechanical time is about 40% of the total pan ignition time.  These videos also confirm an experiment using infrared gates to measure mechanical time vs total time.  (Lock videos are filmed at 5000 fps)

The links below will allow you to see most of these tests.  In one you can see the pan ignite, (pause), fire from the vent, (pause), and then the ball exit the muzzle.  (I think the rifle one is the 4th one down the second video link - not sure.  This was done at 15,000 frames /second.  I fired the shot - it was not a hang fire.)

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/new-high-speed-video-from-friendship-09.php

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/more-high-speed-video-from-friendship.php

(This third link has the rifle at 15,000 fps - my mistake)
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/ultra-high-speed-flintlock-movie.php

This is an area where our senses are simply not good enough to picture what is really happening - IMHO.

Regards,
PLetch
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 02:37:52 PM by Larry Pletcher »
Regards,
Pletch
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Daryl

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2011, 08:39:50 PM »
Due to the weight of the frizzen bouncing, plus the weight of the cock and flint snapping forward to stop on the lock plate after scraping and bouncing the frizzen forward against its feather spring in comparison to the weight of a caplock's hammer snapping down in a cap, stopping there, the flint ignition has less potential for precision accuracy than the caplock.

 I present that statement as actual fact (unproved) on the assumption of more jarring movement of the gun prior to the gun's ignition with flintlock ignition, than in a caplock gun.  This does not even take into consideration the slower ignition of the flintlock wherein even more movement would be probable.

Excess gun movement is why we didn't use the available Wolf 30 pound main springs in our Mauser Actioned 3 position match rifles, and stayed with 24 pound springs instead. The lighter springs were more accurate due to less jarring movement prior to ignition.  It is common knowledge that the faster the ignition, the greater the accuracy potential the gun has.  This is why match and benchrest actions are built to limit "lock time" and jarring. In them, lighter firing pins, with sharp acting, short springs are used.  The same idea goes for muzzleloader movement, only on a grander scale.  Note the distance the hammer falls on most ML full bore bench rifles ie: short for faster ignition and flame straight into the powder charge, no bends.

 With the modern stuff, I was referring to less than 1/4" grouping difference at 100 yards, whereas with the ML's ignition time differences, the accuracy difference "should" be even more pronounced.

This may not be fact, but logic says it is.

Note the double bounce of the frizzen EVEN BEFORE the pan ignited in the flint videos. That bouncing must move the gun, not to mention the shooter's inability to hold perfectly steady. Shooting off the bench will probably limit the gun's accuracy to actual movement during ignition, from the causes mentioned. I've been fairly consistently capable of shooting 1/2" groups with both my .40 and .45 cal. flint guns, however, doing that with the .58 double (single barrel groups as both barrels opens the group to 1 1/8" slightly vertical group) or my .69 is a whole lot easier. They are both caplocks. Not proof by any means, but still corroborative evidence.

Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2011, 10:23:35 PM »
I'd say Daryl is on to something with all the jarring going on. On match service rifles we even stake the front sling swivel to keep it from swinging and banging on the gas cylinder.  Little stuff but it's there. Someone once told me that if you were a good pistol shooter with good followthrough you would probably do well with a flintlock.
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

Offline Frizzen

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 12:26:35 AM »
I do.
The Pistol Shooter

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2011, 01:16:32 AM »
Daryl,
You likely noticed that there is a pretty wide variation in the amount of frizzen rebounds with all the lock videos.  Somewhere in that bunch is a Chambers round faced lock with NO frizzen spring.  It returns once and stops just above the flint - actually a perfect rebound.  Jim, with tongue in cheek, said that he worked endless hours getting it to do that.

Regards,
PLetch
Regards,
Pletch
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He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Daryl

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2011, 09:28:27 PM »
Broke the feather spring on my Dickert lock last winter - used it the rest of the trail and got perfect ignition. I didn't work on mine any where near as long as Jim did.  I left the bottom of the sping on the lock.

Offline Canute Rex

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2011, 09:42:28 PM »
Being somewhat of a traditionalist (Just took a century step back into matchlock shooting) it pains me to offer this up but...

What would be the effect of making the hammer/cock out of titanium to lighten it? Likewise a half-soled titanium frizzen? The flint would weigh the same, but the lighter weight overall would allow the whole deal to accelerate faster with the same spring tension. A lighter frizzen would still kick forward and rebound, but to less effect.

Another "genius" idea would be to reverse the flint clamping mechanism. That is, if the top jaw was threaded and the screw had a hex head and came up from the bottom then there wouldn't be that knob of steel out at the end of the swing. Lower rotational inertia means a faster lock time.

Ok, back to reality.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2011, 10:50:14 PM »
I have been thinking about this too. To see if any weight-saving cane be done easily, I turned a top jaw screw from aluminum.  Thought I could file up a top jaw from Al as well.  The weight saving is considerable comparing it to steel. I also found a plastic 1/4x20 screw in the plumbing dept.  Haven't timed any yet.   If this works I think I may market a Pletcher Engineering Speed kit.   ;)

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
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He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline David Price

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2011, 03:10:05 AM »
Larry,

Steve and I may have to do our woods walk at friendship without you if you if you keep talking about aluminum cocks and plastic screws .

Steve,

Grab him by the ears and shake him

David

chapmans

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2011, 03:33:10 AM »
David,
  It may be interesting to see just how many of those plastic screws he would need to shoot the woods walk!  We will have to inspect his rifle before he shoots! We don't want any unfair advantage!
 Steve

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2011, 04:11:34 AM »
Flintlock accuracy comes from concentration and follow through.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2011, 04:34:09 AM »
Larry,

Steve and I may have to do our woods walk at friendship without you if you if you keep talking about aluminum cocks and plastic screws.
David

I promise not to use any.  I just want to find out if a weight reduction makes a difference.  It might be so fast that it makes sparks before the flint hits the frizzen.  To quote the commercial, "Makes sense if you don't think about it."

Seriously, I doubt there would/will be a measurable improvement, but I'd have fun testing it.  As for the woods walk, I have a Mark Silver gun I want to use this spring.  I won't take chances; I"ll leave the "Speed Kits" at home.

Take care,
Larry
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Daryl

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2011, 10:28:57 PM »
Hmm - I have difficulty with aluminum screw heads lasting one tightening, let alone plastic - simply can't imagine - I am interested in Canute's Titanium Parts testing - are you going to make these for all L&R and Siler locks? ;)

I wonder how much the weight of the cock (or springs) can be reduced and still have enough 'power' to cut steel off the frizzen for sparks?

Written in the Firearms of the American West about the current issue muskets having main springs 3 times heavier than necessary and that musket accuracy could be improved merely by reducing the springs.  Now, if a musket's accuracy could be improved by less 'jarring', what about a rifle's - makes sense?

Just how light can the 'parts' be made and still work.

Canute & Larry - your path is before you.  Have at-her - but please, no aluminum or plastic.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 10:29:17 PM by Daryl »

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2011, 11:56:05 PM »
Hmm - I have difficulty with aluminum screw heads lasting one tightening, let alone plastic - simply can't imagine . . . . . . Just how light can the 'parts' be made and still work. . . . . . . Canute & Larry - your path is before you.  Have at-her - but please, no aluminum or plastic.

Hi Daryl,
Not to fear, my friend,  this has been an exercise in thought and what if's.  In many fields, weight saving means an increase in performance.  (In an advisory role with high school students this has come up many times.)  So it is natural for the same questions arise with flintlocks.   A friend recently asked me if I considered drilling holes in the back of a cock, in effect skeletonizing it.  That lead me to wonder if lightening the top would do more good since it was farther from the center of rotation.  If that was true, how would one do it?   This is what lead me to think about a lighter top jaw screw. 

Just to see, I turned an aluminum top jaw screw and weighed it to see the difference.  A steel screw weighs 165.3 grains vs 45.3 grains for al.  Considering the complete cock minus the flint we would have 727.9 grains for all steel parts vs 607.9 for the complete cock with the AL screw replacing the steel one.  The weight reduction is app 17%.

Durability is another story entirely.  I have no idea whether an AL screw would be durable.  It did survive one trial, but that means nothing.  So, you see where this is leading.  While I may time this, I have no intention to use one on my guns, nor would I market anything like this --- unless I could make millions at it. ;)

So, don't worry.  By now you can see that I'm driven by a great curiosity to learn.  That I don't apologise for.

Best regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Kelhammer

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Re: Flintlock accuracy
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2011, 07:10:30 PM »
Larry,

Steve and I may have to do our woods walk at friendship without you if you if you keep talking about aluminum cocks and plastic screws .

Steve,

Grab him by the ears and shake him

David

This gave me a good laugh,  thank you!   

Andrew