Author Topic: Aging and Why?  (Read 18324 times)

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2011, 09:47:46 AM »
I often wondered how many guys from 1750ish said to their gunsmith, Make it look like it is 200 years old?  Not too many. Every rifle, horn, bag, knife was new at one time. I would wager that more often then not a new item held a higher value then a used one. A lot of the wear and tear you see on old guns happened in the closet or attic over the past 190 years, not the ten years it was used. What would the rifle of a pioneer or longhunter look and feel like WHEN HE WAS USING IT? It would often times look like a new rifle with a little honest wear and use. The best way to achieve that is through a little honest wear and use. It does not have to look like a browning made in japan all super shiny and perfect. It can look new and not have a shiny finish on it.

Just one man's opinion.

Pat Cameron

A couple of observations:
1) While some folks do make the 200 year old look, many if most most of us do more of a used not abused look or just a well worn look.
2) While true that everything was once new not everyone owned new - used goods were purchased as well and that is documented. Those used goods would have had age on them
3) As to wear and tear -- few of us today put anywhere near the amount or in the time factor the old timers did - again documented. One letter from the L & C Expedition noted that if it had not been for their resident gunsmith their guns would have been out of service quite early on (IIRC within 6 months?). The Indian Dept noted that guns amongst the Natives generally lasted no more more than 18 months to two years.
4) While I personally don't find the commonly used term "honest wear" offensive, it does imply (intentionally or not) that anything else is "dishonest" and dishonest in my book = illegal.......and yes there are fakers, but all of the makers I know either personally or by reputation who make aged goods are as honest as the day is long - they are just artisans practicing their craft.
5) My last point is that not everyone buying aged goods is a re-enactor/living historian, many (if not most?) are collectors - a completely different yet still valid (and for the maker generally lucrative) market...different strokes fo different folks
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 09:52:42 AM by Chuck Burrows »
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
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Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2011, 05:58:59 PM »
Excellent points Chuck.  I had completely overlooked the collector market in my focus on use.  It reminds me a lot of the elderly saddle and horse tack makers I knew in the deep Southwest back in the 1950's.  They were building by hand using methods and styles that probably dated back into the 1800's in some cases.  It was new and looked it, but after decades of use I suspect today it would take a real expert to sort theirs from gear actually built in the 1800's, and the best is certainly widely collected.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2011, 08:00:16 PM »
I often wondered how many guys from 1750ish said to their gunsmith, Make it look like it is 200 years old?  Not too many. Every rifle, horn, bag, knife was new at one time. I would wager that more often then not a new item held a higher value then a used one. A lot of the wear and tear you see on old guns happened in the closet or attic over the past 190 years, not the ten years it was used. What would the rifle of a pioneer or longhunter look and feel like WHEN HE WAS USING IT? It would often times look like a new rifle with a little honest wear and use. The best way to achieve that is through a little honest wear and use. It does not have to look like a browning made in japan all super shiny and perfect. It can look new and not have a shiny finish on it.

Just one man's opinion.

Pat Cameron

A couple of observations:
1) While some folks do make the 200 year old look, many if most most of us do more of a used not abused look or just a well worn look.
2) While true that everything was once new not everyone owned new - used goods were purchased as well and that is documented. Those used goods would have had age on them
3) As to wear and tear -- few of us today put anywhere near the amount or in the time factor the old timers did - again documented. One letter from the L & C Expedition noted that if it had not been for their resident gunsmith their guns would have been out of service quite early on (IIRC within 6 months?). The Indian Dept noted that guns amongst the Natives generally lasted no more more than 18 months to two years.
4) While I personally don't find the commonly used term "honest wear" offensive, it does imply (intentionally or not) that anything else is "dishonest" and dishonest in my book = illegal.......and yes there are fakers, but all of the makers I know either personally or by reputation who make aged goods are as honest as the day is long - they are just artisans practicing their craft.
5) My last point is that not everyone buying aged goods is a re-enactor/living historian, many (if not most?) are collectors - a completely different yet still valid (and for the maker generally lucrative) market...different strokes fo different folks

This is a very difficult subject I admit. It is impossible to use items and not have them show some wear. However. Knifes and hatchets and gun parts do not pit significantly with normal use unless intentionally neglected. Horns do not look 200 years old even if used quite a bit for 20-30 years. So why all the pitting? Pitting and etching is far different than having marks from the hardening fire on the blade of a knife for example.

I have a friend who has been involved with making MLs and associated equipment since I was a baby if not before.
His first comment on aging, concerning guns especially, is always "fraud". There is no other reason for it from his stand point.
Here is one definition:
"• a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities : mediums exposed as tricksters and frauds."

There is so much of this stuff out there from rifles to "corn boilers" and its been done for so long that its impossible to tell old from new right now in too many cases. How does one tell an 40 or 80 year old fake from an original when its possible the "expert" has been looking at "documented" fakes 25 to 50% of the time so fake is old and old it fake?
What about damage to the "historical record" for researchers 80-100 years from NOW? What provenance does one trust?

Trying to place the guilt on the innocent buyer with the ever popular "let the buyer beware" defense is simply an admission of guilt IMO.

This opinion has nothing to do with "appreciating good work". Aged items do have a visual appeal. However.. Aging is a fine way to cover sloppy work especially in firearms since the metal parts are not expected to fit right. After all its supposed to be old right?
Fact or fantasy?

So long as there is a demand someone will make it. The people who want it will create whatever fantasy they can dream up to justify their buying the stuff they like. So when people talk of "fantasy rifles" for example all the aged guns fall into the classification. Its fantasy as opposed to a continuation of the art. I would bet my house that JP Beck did not make aged guns with bores already rusted and the stock pre-cracked in the the wrist. Just like people would not pay a premium for a new pickup with dents, scrapes, flaked paint and cracked windows today, in 1770 people did not buy new goods that were beat up, much less pay extra for them.
But people who want to talk the talk and not have to walk the walk find the aged stuff appealing.
They like to look experienced and knowledgeable but would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the woods if they knew the Shawnee were waiting out there to kill them since they have kindergarden level skills in the woods and in the use of their equipment. But they look really cool cause their stuff looks 200 years old.

I guess my primary complaint is the folks that demand "aged" stuff and the people that make it, are distorting the history they claim to love. That this history has already been damaged by this practice is beyond dispute.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2011, 01:06:08 AM »
This quote is from the web, its about new Fender vintage finished guitars in their relic series...

"Back in the mid '90s, the Fender® Custom Shop developed special finish and hardware aging techniques that they used to create the Fender® Relic® series. While technically new guitars, the Relic® series offers the broken-in feel and comfortable playability of instruments that have survived years of gigging, practicing, and playing time. Now Fender® is using those same aging methods to produce the Road Worn™ series guitars and basses, which combine aged aesthetics, modern functionality and playability, and low prices that working musicians can afford."

Its still a Fender....and its gonna cost alot more than a Kay...but its not going to cost antique road show level prices appraised for a vintage 52 Telecaster...some folks love and prefer this look even in guitars it seems...while some opt to by the shiney new version...maybe its something similar that has happened in the contemporary longrifle culture?

All I do know that the vintage finish on items as dissimilar as new guitars and cap and ball six guns is available, and is generally a pretty pricy option, one that lots of customers never the less are attracted to. I think its more about asthetics and our modern culture than attemps to fraud someone.
TC
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Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Offline smshea

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Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2011, 03:41:46 AM »
Yesterday I sold a gun to a very nice Gentlemen who was a VERY competitive shooter , In the late afternoon I took a deposit from another Very competitive shooter. Guys who shoot Regularly and Competitively make up about 25% of my business.  Another 25% goes to guys who Rendezvous, trek, reenact etc. and will also be shooting them regularly. The other 50% goes to folks that want a more authentic muzzleloader to hunt with, shoot on occasion or just look at. While I build them all to shoot, I know there are a large number of them that are hanging over fire places that wont get shot but a few times. People who would love to own an original Carved gun with an engraved box but cant  justify spending that money for something that they will just look at so instead they buy something contemporary that looks old from across the room. While I never get into beating up guns or "Hard Aging" Most of the guys doing that are VERY capable of building an "As New" gun. The bottom line is simple, weather we like it or not we are building New guns and accouterments, New guns and accouterments that look new or New guns and accouterments that look aged to different degrees. The vast majority of calls I get want the "newness" knocked off and judging from what you see on this site and others, I'm not alone. Meeting the customers demands is about all we have left in common with our 18th and early 19th century builders.   
  I don't claim to know where or when the aging craze started but I do know that allot of the guys locally who got good at it, cut their teeth trying to Re-age originals that got the Refinish and buffing wheel treatment in the 60's and 70's. The history of many originals has been distorted God only knows how many times over the last century. It would be nice to think that a majority of what is out there saw its last hunt, or Sunday shoot and was then put in a closet until some kind historian realized its value and put it behind glass....but then there is reality. These were not always relics. For a long time they were just some relatives old guns, horns bags, etc. The kid glove "Leave them as found" treatment is relatively new to the last half of the last century.       

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Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2011, 11:56:12 PM »
Gentlemen,

To each his own. I've noticed, after working in outfitting camps and ranches for much of my life that those who actually use their equipment want it in the best possible condition as many times their lives depend upon it. Those who did not maintain their equipment were not held in high regard by those who took pride in being efficient at their work. Poorly maintained firearms, tack or harness was the mark of a greenhorn or poser. When our equipment/clothing became worn to the point of  being marginal for the job, we sold it to artists or tourists.

No offense intended, just a personal observation on human nature's bent towards buying personality.

Steve

Offline Luke MacGillie

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Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2011, 12:30:52 AM »
Just curious, but based upon everyone's recalled memories, who really should get credit for starting the trend of routinely aging contemporary bags and horns...and when were they actively working and getting recognized for doing it? I think the trend may stretch back at least 40+ years already.
TC  

I grew up, literaly and figurativly in the Thunder Creek Longrifles.  Glen McClain, the Scales Brothers, Sid Birt and a host of other really talented Artists.  The guy I remember aging his art was H. Harve Hilderbrand more than most.  This was late 70's early 80's.......

And having had a Gary Birch bag for all these years, I was amazed at the price they garner these days :o

Offline jim meili

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Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2011, 10:27:40 PM »
I love it when this subject comes up. Like Rich says it is a perenial discussion, but it is always good to hear the opinions as there are new thoughts coming in.
 
Back to Mr Albert's original questions on aged horns, I have quite a number of original horns, none of them fancy, some with a little scratching and most with tulip type tips. Some are white and look like they were made yesterday with the exception of the worms or the scratches. Some are a nice light brown color and some are the distinct green, but almost all of them are dirty. As all of us know when you mess with blackpowder you get dirty and it gets on whatever you touch especially when it gets mixed with sweat and hand oils. There are some of my orignal horns that have it caked on in the scratches and around the plugs. Wood is especially prone to picking up oil and dirt. It's a fine look and hard to copy in a contemporary manner.

I can see why folks like the aged look. If any of you are like me it warms the heart to look over a fine antique either furniture, horns, bags or guns and let it tell its story. Your imagination can run wild. Now if you cannot use an original piece than we want to go with the best duplicate we can and that brings in aging.



This is Old Butt Ugly, not fancy or distressed just butt ugly.

A lot of horns came to this country from the West Indies and South America by ship in the raw state. I have been told that they were shipped in barrels in a chemical of some sort to keep away the worms and consequently they picked up the greenish cast which has stayed with some of them to this day. Does anyone know what this chemical may have been?
Thanks for putting up with my wandering thoughts...
Jim Meili
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 10:30:09 PM by jim meili »

Online rich pierce

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Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2011, 12:34:34 AM »
Jim, for a treatise and how-to on horn dyeing go to Mad Monk's page on dying with copper and iron salts.  Real good stuff.

http://shoot7.tripod.com/madmonk.html 
Andover, Vermont

Offline jim meili

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Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2011, 12:44:31 AM »
Thanks Rich, good stuff there. I should have thought of the Monk. I think I have his book at home if I do recall.
Thanks again, Jim

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2011, 05:23:48 PM »
Up to this point no one has talked about Bob Harn, better known as "clorox" Bob.   From my recollections he was one of
the first ones to get into that "Clorox" thing.   Thank goodness no one seems to be doing it anymore, but, at the time, it
sure raised a lot of eyebrows.    As I recall, John Bivins made nothing but clean rifles, as did Jack Haugh, and many others
at that time.   Then, on the other hand, those Herschel House guns, while not really being aged, but had that great mellow look to them.   I must honestly say, I don't think I ever looked at a Herschel gun that didn't feel and fit good, one
that I could have taken home real easy.............Don

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Aging and Why?
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2011, 11:07:10 PM »
Don - as far as I know Herschel still uses the boiled clorox method to age his iron and many other makers use the cold blue/clorox method - it all depends on how you use it in conjunction with other methods that makes the look over done or not........
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.