Author Topic: Lock and Vent Speed Tests  (Read 7876 times)

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« on: February 09, 2011, 01:29:33 AM »
February 2011 Experiments

On Feb. 4, Steve and I timed a couple of locks and did a test to study the effect vent conditions have on ignition speeds.  We wanted to compare ignition speeds of an empty, clean vent to a vent filled with priming powder.  Tradition says that a filled vent is slower.  We want to find out if the difference is measurable.

The first lock we timed was Ketland lock from Tip Curtis.  Steve has a southern gun that this lock will go into.  We waited to time it until it had the lock retaining hole drilled and tapped.
We installed a new flint and timed 20 trials using Swiss Null B for priming.  The average for those trials was .037 seconds.  This places it in the top 10 of reproduction locks I have timed if memory serves.  In one trial we recorded an exceptionally fast time.  It was either a computer glitch or the spark production was strong enough to trip the photo cell before the priming powder ignited.  At this point we don’t know.  One always worries that a previously unknown variable shows up, however these usually show as slow times rather than fast times.   In either case the lock was very quick.   





Next we went to the Everly ball bearing lock.  We are timing this lock with two different main spring weights.  Today’s test uses the milder of two main springs.  An earlier session recorded an average .042 seconds with a normal spring and Null B.  Today we averaged .047 with the milder spring and Null B.  The .042 (with Null B) places it among the faster locks.  Coupled with great smoothness and easy on flints, it will go into a Lancaster I have in progress. 





We also used the Everly lock and the Tip Curtis lock to test a couple of other powders we had laying around.  Steve had a can of Curtis and Harvey priming powder, and I had a can of Goex 1fg.  We wanted to add these two powders to our time line of priming powder times.



The Curtis and Harvey can gave us an average of .057 (Everly) and .056 (Curtis Ketland).  These times would rank Curtis and Harvey slower than Goex and Swiss.  I can’t speculate as to the reason.  It is an old can and the granules are larger than any of today’s priming powders.
We used the Everly lock to time the 1fg and got an average of .088.  No surprises - here the slower times are not the fault of the lock.


Vent test

The vent test was set up using a fixture we used earlier to time lock ignition speeds.  We used a “pistol” with a barrel stub, small Siler lock, and my computer with photo cells “looking” at the pan and barrel muzzle.

The barrel is loaded with 30 gr 3fg and a sabot to hold powder in place.  The pan is primed, and ignited with a red hot wire to eliminate lock variables. Between firings, the barrel is wiped with two patches and compressed air is blown through the vent to insure that the vent is clean.  The pan is primed with Null B close to the barrel.  The only difference between the test phases was that in the vent was empty in one, while in the other, we picked priming powder into the vent until no more would go in.





The barrel used was octagon 7/8” across the flats and was .45 caliber.  It had a flat flint-type breech.  The vent was a straight cylinder with a 1/16” diameter app. 21 inches in length.  Time starts when the pan photo cell is triggered and stops when the barrel photo cell is triggered.  Thus barrel time is included in this test, however this obviously the same for both vent conditions.

We recorded 5 trials for each vent condition.  The average time for the clean, empty vent was .028 seconds.  The filled vent average was .031 seconds.  As you would expect, the slowest time we recorded was in the filled vent phase (.0363).  However the fastest time of the day was also in the filled vent phase (.0233).   We did a single clean vent trial where we banked the prime away from the vent and recorded at time of .067 – more than two times slower than the clean vent average.

These averages are quite close together.  We expected a larger difference because our ears tell us a hang fire has taken place.  And, here is the most unusual finding.  The fastest time (.0233) we recorded sounded as if it was a hang fire.  The slowest time (.0363) recorded sounded like a sharp crack – no hang fire - sounded like a .22 rim fire.  This reinforces a belief I have long held that our eyes and ears are terrible tools for judging flint events. 

This all makes me wonder what we are really hearing.  Maybe our ears send us false information.  Consider this:  You are three shots into a target and have 3 tens.  You shoot the 4th shot and it’s a nine.  Sounded fast, but you think it was just you.  You shoot the 5th shot, and it has an audible hang.  You look through the scope, and no. 5 is back in the 10 ring.   Maybe the fourth shot was slow, the fifth shot was fast, and your ears are at fault.  With what we learned here, it could be possible.  I truly don’t know the answer.  Sometimes experiments leave you with more questions than answers.  I do know that I trust my ears less than the numbers.
Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

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Offline Mike T

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2011, 02:26:29 AM »
Hey Pletch,   Thanks for experimenting with these various lock functions.  That's how we learn.  Sometimes these puzzeling unanticipated results are the most thought provoking and enlightening.  Keep up the effort.  Many thanks, Mike T.
Mike T

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2011, 02:33:09 AM »
Thanks for the testing. I suspect the C&H you have is more similar to blasting powder than it should be for our uses.
Mad Monk would likely know for sure.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline b bogart

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2011, 03:28:44 AM »
I've got a partial pound of C&H "Pistol Powder".  Same label. just noted  differently.  I've used it a couple of times, and it shoots dirty. I do like the look of that Ketland lock. Seems fast too!

Offline Frizzen

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2011, 03:47:30 AM »
Larry, We got to test my little "Becky" lock with Null B that's on my pistol. I will be at
Friendship in June for the week.
The Pistol Shooter

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2011, 04:15:13 AM »
You're on.  I will be there till Thursday pm.  How about some evening?
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

chapmans

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2011, 06:03:38 AM »
   I had a lot of fun helping Larry with these tests. I was very pleased with the Tip Curtis lock!

   Probably the most interesting test was the touch hole filled, and open, the sound it made when the vent was filled with powder was distinctly different but the times were almost the same. As Larry said we wanted to do this test with just a straight through hole to prove or disprove the so called fuse effect, we have been testing mostly coned vents and I thought maybe the straight .0625 hole would make a difference, once again a myth appears to be busted, at least with this particular setup!

  Larry,
  We will have to decide what is next in line, we may have to wait for the spring thaw so we can get to the range, unless I can locate that stock Siler lock, ha ha! I really enjoy the fish sandwiches for lunch!
   Regards, Steve

Daryl

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2011, 07:18:31 PM »
tks guys, good stuff, as usual.

ERH

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2011, 10:26:51 PM »
Larry just wondering if u tested 4 f goex against swiss null b swiss and swiss 4 f for speed ?
Thanks for the info that u gave us

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2011, 11:07:26 PM »
Larry just wondering if u tested 4 f goex against swiss null b swiss and swiss 4 f for speed ?
Thanks for the info that u gave us

Sure did. The report is on April 2005 MuzzleBlasts and on my web site at:

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/priming-powder-timing.php

It includes Swiss Null B, Swiss 4fg, two samples of Goex 4fg, Goex 3fg, and Goex 2fg.
Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline plastikosmd

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2011, 11:47:16 PM »
Could u educate me on the fuse effect? Nice setup

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 01:10:00 AM »
Could u educate me on the fuse effect? Nice setup

To me the term "fuse effect" is an ignition delay caused by the priming powder having to burn its way through the vent to ignite the main charge instead of "flashing" through the vent.  I'm personally not fond of the term because it implies that we know what caused the delay.    I like the term "hang fire" because it does not suggest the cause. 

There are so many variables that can cause delays that in most cases it can be impossible to rule out all but one.  That was the purpose in our experiment.  We wanted to put a number on the amount of delay, if any, caused by packing a cylinder vent with priming powder.

The delays we found were measurable but not large enough to account for the delays we have measured in pan ignition - where the variables were flint edges, priming , particle size, and location of the prime in the pan.  The other big factor is the delay caused by fouling in the vent.   A vent full of priming is one thing, but a vent filled with fouling is quite another. 

If I were to list three areas for delays based on my testing they would be:
1. Good spark production from good flint edge
2. Proper priming location in the pan with good priming powder
3. Absolutely clean vent

This makes me a little uncomfortable because this is ALL opinion.  I'm used to giving numbers instead.

Regards,
Pletch

Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

chapmans

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 01:15:59 AM »
  Plastikosmd,
   It has been thought that if the vent on a flintlock barrel was filled with powder it would burn like a fuse thus slowing ignition time, or cause a slight hang fire, so it has been passed down for generations to never fill the vent or cover it with priming powder, Larry has proved this not to be the case, at least in the test barrels we have tested and in our own shooting experience.
  Regards, Steve Chapman

Daryl

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 07:38:54 PM »
An Example - Before making a new vent for my squirrel rifle, the vent hole was 2 diameters above the top of the pan (misplaced drum-hole by the original rifle's maker). Due to the arch in the Dur's Egg frizzen's vent-shut-off flange, and the corresponding inside arch(cavity), I was able to prime the pan, then give the rifle a little shake as I tilted it over onto it's left side. This made the priming to flow over to the vent hole, banking against it.  This banking was obvious, if I very carefully opened the frizzen and looked - that was the desired result.  In this rifle, banking the powder against that high vent hole was the only way to get consistantand fast ignition - and ignition virtually every time. If left in the bottom of the pan, the gun might go off, or not - perhaps 50% of the time. Banked, it was virtually every time, and it was quite fast, as well.  It was subsequently not as fast as a Chamber's lock, but as fast as most others, ie: Silers and other L&R's, Davis, etc.

Now, this is contrary to most 'teachings' that tell us to bank the powder against the outside of the pan, so the flash will be thrust or thrown/blown/smashed, against the vent which will increase the speed of ignition. That is what I read and perhaps it worked for the he who claimed it.  In Larry's timing tests, banking away from the vent almost doubled lock-firing times - ie: made the lock slower in ignition.

Offline plastikosmd

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2011, 08:37:51 PM »
thanks guys, I can see where one would think this could happen, it is nice to have data to disprove it

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2011, 04:24:51 AM »
So does all this mean that the commonly accepted ideas for proper vent placement could possibly be wrong? I remember seeing a prominant Washington state writer stating that a Pedersoli gun he was testing had a low vent position. His assessment was that "as long as Pedersoli has been making these things you would think they would know better." Perhaps they do know better.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Lock and Vent Speed Tests
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2011, 04:49:51 AM »
In tests I ran for a Muzzle Blasts article the location of the priming powder in the pan made a bigger difference than a high vs low vent location.  I like a level vent, but don't worry if it is lower than usual.

Check out the article at "Pan Vent Experiments" at:
www.blackpowdermag.com

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.