Smooth Rifles

[northmn]

Besides being a true Oxymoron I find the weapons interesting.  My interest was tweaked when I read an article by John Taylor on shooting elephants with a smooth rifle in 10 bore when he could not get regular ammo.   I am now putting the final finish on one I started back when, screwed up a few times and had to put up and go back to.  I almost started to restock it but decided that it was a hunting gun anyway and looked better than a Traditions factory gun.  I hunted with it a little last year and it gave me a great deal of pleasure.  It is a 20 bore using a trade gun style barrel but I am using a large Siler left hand lock and a sort of Beck design.  It has sights and will group well within minute of deer at 75 ayrds with a 600 RB.  It took a couple of grouse with 1 ounce or so of 5's (I use the same measure and used a 75 grain powder setting for both powder and shot, using exactly 1oz is a carry over to our modern thinking).  Squirel did not cooperate when I carried it but it would have been nice for a couple I saw carrying the 25.  It is a true "Meat" gun.  Personally I think the matches have orphaned them as no sights are allowed for smooth bores.  For practical use I think a smooth rifle in anything from 45 cal on up has a lot of potential.  Something to write about on a 15 below zero morning.

DP

[Daryl]

Good stuff, DP. I built one in .44 cal., oh gosh - back in the late 70's, I think, when I lived in Smithers - using a .420" ball. Dang, can't remember.  I lapped in about a .004" jug choke which worked well - at least it paterned well with 1/2oz. and shot round balls well enough for bunny's heads at 30 to 45yards - even made a bunch of 50 yard shots with it.  That was before I learned it was difficult to hold 2 to 3" at 50 yards with a smoothbore. Anyway, it worked.

Taylor has the 'parts' to make his new .50 Smooth Rifle - 56" bl. I think it is going to have.  That will take a long rod! Good sight radius, eh?

I think John's idea on 10 bore sounds about right - .774 calibre - shoot a 3/4" ball - 610gr. in hard alloy - 635gr. in pure.  I think Bob M. in Ontario uses a smooth 10 bore for moose. Should work.

[Longknife]

I use my 20 ga. smooth rifle, 80 grains of powder under a .600 ball for deer, it sure puts them down QUICK!!!! Its also good with shot for rabbits, birds and squirrel, a real veasatile gun--- I will have to admit, one time after deer hunting all morning I was on my way back to the cabin when I spooked a big red, he ran up a tree and began barking at me at about 20 yds, well, I was gonna unload it and clean it anyway, I took his head clean off with a round ball.....LUNCH!!!!! (yes they were in season)

[MarkEngraver]

  This begs a question that I have been wanting to ask and one of the reasons I joined the forum so I could ask it.
 
  I have a .40 cal smooth "rifle" that continually surprises me every time I take it out shooting. It will shoot one hole clover leaf groups out to 50 yrds. (that’s the furthest I've put it on paper) One day we were shooting and a friend of mine asked if I would spot for him as he shot at a distant rock, he shot and hit no problem, then he suggested I try it with the little smoothie .40, I pull up, hold dead on, let fly and I hit dead center ! No that’s not right, it’s too far, it must be a fluke!  So I try again 3 times and hit 3 times. We laser range the rock at 122 yrds, the rock the size a man’s head. The load is .380 ball, .018 pillow tick patch Balistol lubed, 40 grs. 3f Goex.
   

  Another day we go out and set “coyote gourds”(wild growing gourds here in AZ. that are the size of a baseball or softball)  at varying distances and I walk some out a good ways. We start with the close ones and work our way out to the far ones. Again, the .40 is banging away at the gourds busting them up with regularity. We range the far ones at 98 yrds ! The load this day was .375 ball, .020 canvas patch lubed with Balistol over the 40 grs. of 3f Goex. Oh, I should say the barrel is a 13/16 Green River Barrel Works  from the early 80’s cut to 37 inches, bore measures .403.
 
  This was one of the first guns I ever built. I rebuilt the gun about 6yrs. ago salvaging the barrel and the lock only. The little gun really holds its own with the rifles.
 
  My question is, what is you all's experience with “long range” accuracy with the smooth “rifle”?  Do you find you can hit generally as well as a rifled gun out at distance ?
 
“ northmn” is right !  the guns are an oxymoron and have a lot more potential than are given credit for.

Mark

[T*O*F]

Personally I think the matches have orphaned them as no sights are allowed for smooth bores.

I don't know where you guys keep coming up with this.  There are matches for sighted smoothbores.

[omark]

Personally I think the matches have orphaned them as no sights are allowed for smooth bores.

I don't know where you guys keep coming up with this.  There are matches for sighted smoothbores.

  depends on the club and area youre shooting in.   mark

[RwBeV]

I'm sort of new here and I don't know where you live TOF but there are no such match's with in driving distance of me here in Wyoming.  I wish there was, here I have to shoot with the rifles there are just not enough smooth bore shooters here to have separate match's.

Bob

[Daryl]

We allow one sight on a smoothbore - the front one. No rear sights.

As to accuracy, I've not seen anything to compare with Mark's shooting.

To answer that question on smoothbore accuracy, Mark - I've never seen a smoothbore cloverleaf at 50 yards - never - I am assuming 3 shot groups and more than one lucky one.  I have had 3 very close together out of a 5" or 6", 5 or 6 shot group, but that is not a cloverleaf group, even though those 3 were close.

I had a .44 cal. smoothbore that would about keep a ball on a snowshoe hare's head at 50yards - maybe 2 1/2"- is the odd miss a flyer? I would have to say that is the most accurate smoothbore I've seen, except maybe Taylor's 10 bore Bess.  It needs a lot of powder to shoot well at 50yards, but it will.

I have seen fellows at Hefley Creek hit gong targets at 100 yards, even 200 yards.  Some hit them often at 100 yards, I have too, but I also miss some at that range - heck, I can do that with a rifle. The hits at over 100 yards surprised all of us including the shooter, who admittingly crowed a bit.

I have personally achieved 8" groups at 100yards from a smoothbore - it was from a double barrled shotgun made in 1900, with fixed ammo and a LOT of load development - 191gr. 2f used in the load.  I hav enot seen a muzzleloading smoothbore shoot a group smaller then 8" at 100 yards, but I've seen Taylor shoot a 2 1/2" 5 shot group at that range, with a ML rifle and I "once" managed a 3" 5 shot group with my 14 bore rifle using 165gr. 2F.

[northmn]

I got a 3" group at 75 yards with my 20 bore but do not know if I can duplicate it all the time.  Still, when  I sighted the gun in it was like a rifle in that when I drifted the sights it moved where it should and when I filed the sights it moved where it should.  Its accuracy was not up to my 58 rifle but it would do.  It still needs work on a "cold" load as it seemed to be at its best slightly fouled.  My thicker patch material did not help over a thinner one except it loaded harder.  I do load very fussy and put the parting line from the casting upright.  I am thinking about putting a small punch mark in the mold to be able to load every ball the same.  I personally hold that a smooth bore needs more consistancy than a rifle.  I should jug choke the thing to increase its range with shot.  I do not do a lot of wing shooting with a flintlock but I can break clay pigeons with the thing.  The grouse I get with it are generally setting.  Getting a flying ruffie in the woods with a flintlock would be a real trophy.

DP

[T*O*F]

There are matches for sighted smoothbores.

I am speaking about NMLRA matches.

If you belong to some local club, then it's your problem if they don't allow them.  You should probably lodge a discrimination complaint with the chaplain.

At our podunk club, ya run what ya brung.

[Daryl]

There are matches for sighted smoothbores.

I am speaking about NMLRA matches.

If you belong to some local club, then it's your problem if they don't allow them.  You should probably lodge a discrimination complaint with the chaplain.

At our podunk club, ya run what ya brung.

Oh you can shoot your smooth rifle here, as long as you don't cry too much about shooting your smooth rifle against the rifles.

[FRJ]

OK I give!!!! I've looked on the search tab and cant find anything. I must be using it improperly.Anyhow what defines a smooth rifle? Why is it any different than a simple smoothbore? How can something be called a rifle and not have rifling? I'm just a newbie looking for an answer, not trying to stir up any trouble. Frank

[Don Getz]

Dave........where in the heck did you come up with that new "handle".     I've been looking at it and trying to pronounce
it for 15 minutes............Don

[Daryl]

OK I give!!!! I've looked on the search tab and cant find anything. I must be using it improperly.Anyhow what defines a smooth rifle? Why is it any different than a simple smoothbore? How can something be called a rifle and not have rifling? I'm just a newbie looking for an answer, not trying to stir up any trouble. Frank

Simply a smooth bore, with rifle sights - and so-called "Smooth Rifle" in some orders to gun makers = re-printed and installed in the book "Firearms of the American West 1803 - 1865".

Edited - forgot to mention - some had double set triggers as well. Some were straight octagonal - some swamped octagonal, some ordered as octagonal/round, just as there were octagonal/round barreled rifles.

[SCLoyalist]

FRJ,   As already mentioned, a 'smooth rifle' has no rifling but does have a rear sight.  If you go through H.J. Kaufmann's book on the Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle, you'll see lots of examples of guns with full octagonal barrels, ornate patchboxes, sights, calibers typical of today's rifles (e.g. 45-54)etc that are smoothbores.     This in comparison to what's usually referred to today as a smoothbore - octagonal to round or round barrel, no rear sight,  fusil or fowler stock, or musket,  62 caliber or bigger.

The NMLRA rulebook draws the following distinctions between a smoothbore and a smooth rifle:
  Sighted smoothbore (a.k.a. Smooth Rifle): Sights shall be fixed open, front and rear.  No restriction on caliber.    Set triggers allowed.
  Trade gun or Fowler (a.k.a Smoothbore)  : A traditional offhand hunting firearm originally intended to shoot either round ball or shot.   Flint lock only. No Set triggers, 28 ga (54 cal) minimum. No rear sight above the plane of the barrel.

The distinction between the two can get a bit fuzzy, which may indicate that the distinction is somewhat unimportant unless you're trying to figure out for a competition what events or aggregates your firearm would be legal in.  

Sometime in the last week on one of the forums, I saw a post about a 40 cal smoothrifle that was holding its own with respect to group size out to 75 yards or more.  That would indicate to me that any advantage to a rifle over a tradegun/fusil/fowler with respect to accuracy is partially in the rifling and partially in the sighting system.  It would be interesting to know how that advantage is distributed betwen the two.

[northmn]

A smooth rifle will look like any other long rifle on the outside.  The barrels were rifle type barrels and heavier built.  Patchboxes, sights and DST's as mentioned were more common.  A fowler had a thinner barrel single trigger and a often a larger lock.  Patchboxes were not as common and they had a different general design, as in a better designed buttplate and butt.  Smooth rifles were likely made to be shot with ball and could use shot if desired.  Fowlers were made to be used with shot and could use ball if desired.  Also more than a few fowlers had rear sights.

DP

[T*O*F]

Dave........where in the heck did you come up with that new "handle".

Don,
Many years ago, Shell...in their infinite wisdom, decided we should have an employee of the month program.  Each month I had to pick an employee and nominate him/her.  They got a personalized nameplate that said "Employee of the Month" and their name engraved on a plaque that hung next to the cash register.  They also received a negotiable Sears gift certificate for $25.  Employee of the year got $100 and all winners got to attend a banquet.  It cost me $1500 a year.  Since all my employees were considered equal it became tedious trying to choose someone.  I just started saving the gift certificates and handed them out equally as Xmas bonuses.

The 2nd year, I let them make up ficticious names to have engraved on the plaque.  They came up with names like Ben Dover and others.  Then we decided to try and come up with names that exceeded the width of the space on the plaque.  Ole Norb was one of them.  We took a lame program and turned it into one that all my employees enjoyed and shared the benefits of equally.

[northmn]

I worked in a Polish community for a while.  Rality exceeds imagination as in Pryblyzski a real name.  Also worked in a Bohemian community that never heard of vowels for their names. Kind of like the ball player for the Twins back when Hrbek only they may have used Hrbk.

DP

[MarkEngraver]

Daryl, DP,   Thanks for the reply's to my question.
What you describe is more in keeping with what I would expect in the way of performance from the "smooth  rifle".
No, my little .40 doesn't print one holers  absolutely all the time, but on the average groups are in the 1/2" range at 50 yrds. which still seems way more consistent than you would expect. But if you do your job the gun will produce the 3 shot clusters I mentioned.  As I said the gun surprises me every time I take it out for a ride.
I engraved the "Aim Small, Miss Small" on the side plate opposite the lock.....that's probably the secret !
I guess either I'm flinching just right or all that "Jedi" training is finally bearing fruit !!

Thanks again,
Mark

[Daryl]

I have two rifles I can rely upon to shoot 1/2" at 50 yards off bags - with good weather and perfect holding - of course good bench techniques as well. All the rest are closer to 3/4" to 1" all 5 shot groups. Sights make a big difference - I"m finding beads and wide, shallow V sights easier as I get older.

[MarkEngraver]

Are you referring to an African style express sight ?

I do a lot of inlaying gold in the vertical line going to shallow V for the African Hunters.

Mark

[Daryl]

Yes- those are the sights - nothing better for a 14 Bore Rifle - or any hunting rifle for that matter.  Sure worked on the 200yards match 2 years ago. Hey - we need more competitors - no more typing about shooting, this year is the time to do it.

I merely used silver bearing high temp solder.  Rubbing the line with a patch brightens it if it happens to be dull.

Smooth Rifles are welcome, too.

[Dphariss]

  This begs a question that I have been wanting to ask and one of the reasons I joined the forum so I could ask it.
 
  I have a .40 cal smooth "rifle" that continually surprises me every time I take it out shooting. It will shoot one hole clover leaf groups out to 50 yrds. (that’s the furthest I've put it on paper) One day we were shooting and a friend of mine asked if I would spot for him as he shot at a distant rock, he shot and hit no problem, then he suggested I try it with the little smoothie .40, I pull up, hold dead on, let fly and I hit dead center ! No that’s not right, it’s too far, it must be a fluke!  So I try again 3 times and hit 3 times. We laser range the rock at 122 yrds, the rock the size a man’s head. The load is .380 ball, .018 pillow tick patch Balistol lubed, 40 grs. 3f Goex.
   

  Another day we go out and set “coyote gourds”(wild growing gourds here in AZ. that are the size of a baseball or softball)  at varying distances and I walk some out a good ways. We start with the close ones and work our way out to the far ones. Again, the .40 is banging away at the gourds busting them up with regularity. We range the far ones at 98 yrds ! The load this day was .375 ball, .020 canvas patch lubed with Balistol over the 40 grs. of 3f Goex. Oh, I should say the barrel is a 13/16 Green River Barrel Works  from the early 80’s cut to 37 inches, bore measures .403.
 
  This was one of the first guns I ever built. I rebuilt the gun about 6yrs. ago salvaging the barrel and the lock only. The little gun really holds its own with the rifles.
 
  My question is, what is you all's experience with “long range” accuracy with the smooth “rifle”?  Do you find you can hit generally as well as a rifled gun out at distance ?
 
“ northmn” is right !  the guns are an oxymoron and have a lot more potential than are given credit for.

Mark

Is it "scratch rifled" by any chance?
If I came across a smooth bore that would shoot this good it would be the first thing I checked. This scam was used to win "smooth bore only" matches back in the 19th century.
Many dueling pistols were scratch rifled in early 19th Century England.
I had a 50 smooth rifle that would shoot into 4.5 inches for 5 shots. Cloverleaves? Not with that gun, unless the rifled barrel is put in.

If lightly done scratch rifling is virtually undetectable by the layman and will "shoot almost as well as a rifle for about 100 shots" according to the Warner-Lowe papers that contain the technical details below.

I believe a Vermont Gunsmith named Nicanor Kendall (the papers only name him as Kendall) was the culprit in the "turkey match" where he and the man who accompanied him won all the turkeys.
He had set a barrel up in his rifling machine and used coarse emery to make the "grooves".
Nicanor Kendall was born in 1807 and was one of the original partners who founded Robbins and Lawrence.

Another way to check would be to recover some fired balls that had been loaded sprue up (or marked) and then see how they struck the backstop. If they always hit sprue first its not a smoothbore.
 
Dan

[MarkEngraver]

Its not "scratch rifled" to my knowledge.
     
   I purchased the barrel back in 1981 or so from 'Green River Barrel Co." It was the outfit that purchased the old "Green River Rifle Works" manufacturing equipment and continued to produce barrels under the "plumb center" trademark.  They were one of the first company's to offer a "smoothbore rifle" barrel back in those days. I still have the original catalog
     
   This was the second gun I ever built, pretty crude, and as I said I rebuilt it about 6 yrs ago salvaging the barrel and lock only. The lock is an old DGW Ketland  lock, Italian made I'm sure, but the lock performs really nice and is easy on flints. The bore is shiny like a shotgun, I laped it with JB Bore Bright.
     
   Back in my early days we shot to 30, 40 yrds, not much more, the gun always hit well.  It's only recently that I have begun to shoot it out at further distances because the rifles were shooting out at  further targets. So I've just discovered this guns "peculiarity" and as I mentioned I was curious as to others experience with the accuracy of their "smooth rifles"
   I did have a Green River Forge Northwest Tradegun that shot really well out to 75 yrds.  Wish i still had that gun.

Mark

[northmn]

I use the Express sight on my 20 bore smooth rifle barrel as they are great for older eyes with a larger brass bead.  I have broken clay pigeons with the combination as the Express sight does not give the same tendensies for trying to "aim" when shooting flying.  Green River rifle barrels were also slightly choked and I wonder if your smooth bore may not have a slight choke (it would be about a skeet choke at most).  Surprisingly I have read where others using small bore smooth rifles have had pretty good accuracy at close range.   A 40 smooth bore could make an interesting squirrel gun as it could be laoded with about 1/2 ounce of shot or so for runners at close range.  Also would not be all bad with RB.

DP