Smooth Rifles

[bob in the woods]

The best shooting, [ round ball or shot ] smoothbore I ever owned was a  28 bore.  It's performance in the field was well beyond what you would expect for the bore.  I sold it, of course

[Daryl]

David - my .44 was the most accuracy ML smoothbore I've shot.  As mentioned before, I lapped in a jug choke - about .005" total, starting an inch back from the muzzle.  It handled 1/2 oz. shot well, as well as a .433" RB in cloth patch. It would head shoot snowshoe hairs out to 50 yards, no problem.  I never 'benched' it at that range. Current owner says he shoots 4" groups offhand at 80 yards with it - I'd have to see that. H emay hav ehit a 4" gong at the range - even more than once.

 I hit a bunny gong in the middle at 100 yards with a 20 gauge smoothbore a couple times, but that doesn't mean that that smoothbore shoots a 2" or 3" group at 100 yards.

[northmn]

I expect a smooth bore can be loaded fairly accurately, but I still do not think that they are a longer range weapon.  Sometimes we get carried away on what consititutes a proper level of accuracy for a rifle.  Some think a rifle is no good unless it groups a minute of angle at 100 yards, yet a lot of game has been taken with rifles of less accuracy.  A smooth bore is not likely to give the same accuracy as a rifle and mine will not.  They also have a reputation for going South at some distance.  You might get 3" at 50 yards but not 6" at 100.  Many that use them do not use sights.  Lack of sights is going to create  extra problems at longer ranges.

DP

[Longknife]

Back in the  "80's (thats 1980's) I ran a "woods walk" for a local club for several years. The targets I used were mostly "hit or miss" steel targets, made realisticaly, IE" the right size and coloring for the object. I didn't have any bright painted targets or round "gongs" etc, I tried to make it as realistic as possible. There were 5 shooters in each group and there was always a group of  smooth bore shooters that always finished in the top three and sometimes tied with the rifles. That proved to me that a smoothbore on the eastern frontier was just as effective as a rifle in saving your skin!!!!...Ed

[Canute Rex]

Some basic Newtonian physics occurs to me: An object in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by a force. The benefit of rifling is the gyroscopic effect on the ball, the imparted inertia resisting forces that might push it off course.

If we go into the world of abstract physics ("For the purposes of this exercise, let us treat a camel as a perfect sphere on a frictionless surface...") then a perfectly round ball in a perfectly uniform patch in a perfectly uniform barrel fired in perfectly still air would go perfectly straight.

Reality intrudes with flawed materials and wind, but a well cast ball loaded with obsessive care in a clean, smooth barrel and fired on a windless day might carry quite a way before drifting off. Mark noted that he lapped the bore with JB.

[Daryl]

If you watch a round ball fired from a smoothbore, using a pair of biocs or spotting scope for viewing, sometimes you can see it take on a curve like a turmpet's horn, verring off to one side, heading down into the ground, or up at an angle before it disappears from sight or into the ground - at 80 yards or further out is the best place to see this.  Other times it just seems to go in a straight line off target, even though the person shooting said it was a good hold.  Sometimes it curves onto the target from a line originally heading off.

they are really quite fun to watch sometimes. Much depends on the quality of the casting, sprue, if any and of course, if loose enough to bounce against or off a barrel wall on it's way out (just wads, no patch).  I tried just that in my .44 - no patch, just over powder and over ball wads, horrid accuracy resulted even at 25 yards, yet the ball was only .007" smaller than the bore which is quite tight as smoothbore balls usually run, actually.  with patches, it would shoot 1" groups easily at 25 yards off bags. This is why I say you cannot tell anything about accuracy loads with a rifle at 25 yards - even smoothbores can shoot 1" groups. Ragged holes only 1" in diameter, with a 20 bore yet.

Much also seems to depend on the speed. The faster the ball is going, the further out they canget before 'problems' with atmosphere or ball send them heading off for who knows where. This is why the US Military thought their .69 caliber muskets should be delivering 1,700fps - to give longer accuracy range - hense the 165gr. charge in the paper ctgs. for charge and priming.  Later, when powder quality improved, that was dropped to 135gr. - still a mite higher than most guys shoot in their guns today - I'll warrant.  165 and even 135gr. will kick in a gun not designed for it. Their military guns were not.  The 6 1/2 pound carbine of 1847 might have been the worse - perhaps. Many of them had both front and rear sights, even though left as smoothbores after the 1850's swtich to rifling the current muskets for the minnie.

That would make them smooth rifles, wouldn't it.

[northmn]

Some basic Newtonian physics occurs to me: An object in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by a force. The benefit of rifling is the gyroscopic effect on the ball, the imparted inertia resisting forces that might push it off course.
If we go into the world of abstract physics ("For the purposes of this exercise, let us treat a camel as a perfect sphere on a frictionless surface...") then a perfectly round ball in a perfectly uniform patch in a perfectly uniform barrel fired in perfectly still air would go perfectly straight.
Reality intrudes with flawed materials and wind, but a well cast ball loaded with obsessive care in a clean, smooth barrel and fired on a windless day might carry quite a way before drifting off. Mark noted that he lapped the bore with JB.

I work on this assumption and feel that one of the big claims about smoothbore inaccuracy is how they are loaded.  A ball has a center of gravity.  The closer the center of gravity is to the point of aim the more chance one has of hitting the target.  They likely drift towards the heavy side.  Rifling spins that center so that it forms a cone instead of a line pointed at the target.  Also the surface fo the ball can have imperfections that may cause un even air flow.  While a rifle will shoot about any cast ball fairly accurate the need for a near perfect ball is mandatory to get a smooth bore to shoot.  Many shooters load loose paper cartridges or no patch and use whatever is cast.
Sometimes I think that the high placement of smooth bore shooters in some of these trail walks lies in the fact that they may be better shooters.  I ahve seen some rifle shooters at matches taht could just as well shoot a smooth bore.  For 100 yard matches I used the 2 foot square 50 yard rapid fire pistol target so some could have a score and try to keep the interest up in shooting.

DP

[Dphariss]

If one does not want to look for ball trails with a spotting scope or such then shoot a Daisy "Red Rider" or such down sun and watch the BB take on some weird curves after its out about 15-20 feet.
A lead round ball is little different though patching surely helps.

Shooting steel plates even if cut to the shape of squirrel, for example, is misleading. A hit on the tip of the tail is a hit for score but would not kill the animal if you were hungry.
Slihouette shooting is a wonderful example of this. One shooter shoots 10 rams down and holds a 6" group on the animals. The shooter next to him hits 10 rams but the shots are scattered from the rump to horn to nose to foot maybe a 30" by 24" group. Both get the same score. This is the BS part of silhouette and one of the things that makes it popular with some and frustrating for others.

If the steel targets are all large enough to contain the group of a smoothbore at a given distance the smooth bore may well score as well as the rifles. But they will not shoot as accurately.
In rifle matches as held in Colonial America and the "chunk" matches of today the SB has no chance. Few were offhand.

Like the Kendall "incident" above.

Dan

edit reason....
GEEZ now I'm repeating myself
Between me and dad all I have done this week is go to Dr appointments. Billings twice and Livingston twice .  Its a wonder I have not met myself going one way or the other.

[Daryl]

yeah - it happens.

On trail walks, the best smoothbore shooter sometimes match the best rifle shooters at Hefley Rondy.  The "Rest of the Story" is told in the bullseye match - where the smoothbores are dismal failures at producing #'s or even 5 hits per target - there are only 3 25, 50 and 75yards.  the 75 yard target is the big single bull, buffalo target.

[northmn]

Sorry to hear about the health problems, their are few minor ones.
A smooth rifle might stand up at 25 yards and maybe 50 in an offhand match.  As much as I may like their concept they would not make a X sticks arm.  They have their place, and in the East for a person that likes the concept of one firearm and does not shoot matches they give a lot of satisfaction.  Mine is accurate enough to use at closer ranges for deer or black bear.  One also has to remember that many of the old lever guns that "won the West" were not particularly accurate, especially with factory ammo.  Ed Harris tested a couple of older rifles like the model 95 Winchester and got about 4 inch groups at 100 yards.  A lot of 94's would be doing good to get that.  Many of the smaller bore muzzle loaders start to play hob with the wind at longer range and the 45 round ball is starting to lose a bit of steam at that range.  A muzzle loading round ball rifle in a smaller bore will give only about 25 yards of extra practical range over a larger bore smooth bore.  You can make hits farther away with one but they are starting to get pretty weak.  Is a 45 rifle, which is adequate for deer still adequate beyond 100 yards  Some claim they do not like them even at that range.  I might be able to ring gongs and such at longer ranges but should I shoot a deer with one?  A larger bore like a 54 or so will extend the range considerably but then the iron sight issue also enters in.  How far away should one really use traditional iron sights  Smooth bores, loaded correctly can give pretty adequate accuracy farther than some give them credit, especially with sights.  If a rifle were shot without sights it would not be competitive on bullseye targets either.  Out to 75 yards I could score all 5 with the smooth rifle but I would not beat a good rifle shooter on a bullseye.

DP

[northmn]

Dan's example of patterns vs groups on gongs reminds me of a win I got with a pistol one time when I more or less scattered my shot over the scoring rings.  a very good pistol shooter I shot against had a beautiful group with two out sdie the scoreing rings.  He like a 6 o'clock hold and the target did not lend itself to his sights.  He changed his sights after that as I had problems refraining from commenting about that win.   
Pistol shooters moved to a sport called "practical pistol" where speed became important coupled with hits.  Bowling pins or "practical" targets like the IPSIC target were used.  We had a variation of that theme in a BP shoot and timed how fast one could shoot 4 blocks off a rail with BP revolvers.  I could beat the above target shooter with a revolver at that sport pretty regularly.  Many would end up with no loads left in their revolvers and have blocks standing.  I go back again to what is practical accuracy as compared to bullseye accuracy.  Who would be more successful out in the field?  Would the smoothbore shooter that hit gongs be more likely to get venison up close over a deliberate rifle shooter   Popping squirrels in the head with a rifle is fun but sometimes a load of shot will get those that don't like to stand still.  I got a deer with a recurve one time that required a very quick shot before it took off.  I shot enough 3-D against compounds to know that they likely would not have gotten that deer.  A compound shooter can score better than I can on 3-D and make longer deliberate shots but I still scored well with longbows and recurves deer hunting.

DP
 

[BrownBear]

Hey DP,

You pretty well summarize our experience with snowshoe hares.  Day by day as conditions vary, they either hold and allow deliberate head shooting or break wildly before you can glimpse them sitting.  With a rifle, the breaking days are hungry days.  With a smoothbore I score much more consistently from day to day simply because I'm set for the days when it's all running shots.  

My one caveat is that when loading with shot I want a very smooth pattern and clean edges so I can use it to "fringe" the hares rather than centering them if it turns out to be a sitting day.

I still love head shooting with rifles when conditions allow, but love hare meat enough to acknowledge that a smoothbore is certainly the better all around solution.  I haven't tried head shooting with .610 balls from a smoothbore, but that would appear to be the next logical step for sitting days.

[Daryl]

Keith, a hunting buddy, with an English rifle in .75 Taylor-made, and my rifle of .69 cal. also Taylor made, went bunny hunting one day. Keith used 40gr. 3F in his .75 and I used 30gr. 3f in the .69.  You could actually hear the little bones crunching and breaking as the big balls passed through their little heads.
We, and my little Springer, Foxton's Lady Jessica had a wonderful day.

[BrownBear]

BBear- my buddy, with an English rifle in .75 Taylor-made, and my rifle of .69 cal. also Taylor made, went bunny hunting one day. Keith used 40gr. 3F in his .75 and I used 30gr. 3f in the .69.  You could actually hear the little bones crunching and breaking as the big balls passed through their little heads.
We, and my little Springer, Foxton's Lady Jessica had a wonderful day.

Man, that does sound like a great day!  I've got a 62 cal rifle in addition to the smoothy, and I'm way overdue taking it out.  Doesn't matter the size of the hole when you're crunching heads.  Of course your ears are better than mine.  I barely hear a splat rather than a crunch when they land!   

[Dphariss]

Sorry to hear about the health problems, their are few minor ones.

DP

Dad (84) got whacked by a guy running a red light in a Fairbanks AK in Sept. So he has been getting his back and neck straightened out due to whiplash etc etc. Lots of miles this winter. Our checkups at the VA happened to stack one day apart this week. But its 80 miles one way.
Dad flys back the AK  March 10 so maybe I can get back to the shop a little more and not be running +- 200 miles a week.
Dan

[Pete G.]

I've always been curious if a smooth rifle was built that way or bored out later. Seems that I read something somewhere about a traveling boring operation that went from town to town. If there were enough work to make that feasible it seems like a lot of rifles would be converted. Anybody know for sure ?

[Dphariss]

I've always been curious if a smooth rifle was built that way or bored out later. Seems that I read something somewhere about a traveling boring operation that went from town to town. If there were enough work to make that feasible it seems like a lot of rifles would be converted. Anybody know for sure ?

Both are  HC.
The larger bored guns I consider to be bored out.(?)
By the 1830s having a rifle that was 54 or larger  either made that way or from years of use and freshing was impractical. Or the owners eyes started to fail. They bored the old gun smooth and gave it to some kid to hunt with. There are many possibilities.
44-50 caliber smooth probably always smooth. (?) There is a 1/2 octagonal JP Beck in Cody that I assume was made smooth 52 caliber according to the museum.
The Verner rifle is smooth but what it was made as? But its called a rifle right on the patchbox(?)
Your guess is as good as mine as to which rifles started out smooth and which were originally rifled.
For all we know some smooth  rifles were rifled later.  Who knows?
Dan

[omark]

heres a guess,,,,,,, and only a guess. if it has set triggers it started life as a rifle, without set trigger, it could have started as either one???    ideas???                 mark

[northmn]

Dad (84) got whacked by a guy running a red light in a Fairbanks AK in Sept. So he has been getting his back and neck straightened out due to whiplash etc etc. Lots of miles this winter. Our checkups at the VA happened to stack one day apart this week. But its 80 miles one way.
Dad flys back the AK  March 10 so maybe I can get back to the shop a little more and not be running +- 200 miles a week.
Dan
[/quote]

I have been going through something like that as an individual went into a skid right in front of me and totaled my car when I tried to avoid a head on.  took out the whole drivers side.  I am now on heavy doses of pain killer for whip lash.  Makes work a challenge.
I noticed in one of my books that smooth rifles seemed to be more common in some areas, like the Allentown region.  Would be interesting if any collectors made a connection.  Tennessee rilfes do not seem to include many smooth bores for instance.  It is surprising how small a load of shot it can take to harvest game.  Some also like a smoothbore for safety reasons for hunting squirrels in populated areas.

DP

[Daryl]

According to "Firearms of the American West" smoothbores were VERY popular by about 1825/30 through into the 70's. Aside from the 'surplus military muskets the government sold to civilians and gave to Indians" it was due to the popularity of double barreled percussion shotguns.

[Leatherbelly]

I always thought it would be great to see a slow motion clip of the"roundball in flight", especially one shot out of a smoothie.

[Daryl]

That film would have to be a side-ways film to best show the knuckle-ball effect until the ball took on a spin and careened off somewhere not where the intended target happened to be. That would be most difficult. I wonder how much of the knucke-ball up and down flight is actually there? I know there is a HUGE difference in my .20 bore from 25 yards to 50 yards - it has a 'standard' choke of about Improved Cylinder(.007 or .008") and I cannot get a tighter than 5" group at 50 yards with it.  I have shot nice 3" groups at 50 yards with other 20 bores - non-choked and a 2 1/2" group at 50 yards with Taylor's Bess. I'm talkign 5 shots, not just 3 lucky ones.  Fliers rule the group- normally. A couple or 3 can be close together with my gun, but then off into the hinterland go the others.

[northmn]

I wonder if the choke itself affects accuracy as much as the ability to load a tighter patching   My 12 bore has a constricted skeet or IC choke that has been reamed out from a full choke.  Due to the barrel constriction it is more difficult to load a thicker patch.  As the gun only weighs about 6.5 pounds or so I do not shoot a lot of roundball out of it.  Some with jug chokes claim little change in accuracy.

DP

[blunderbuss]

I took a double barreled 12 ga shot gun and put a rear sight on it and sighted the left barrel in for a .715 ball I sighted it for 50 yards and it will knock out the "X" One thing I realized was the ball had to have no voids in it as that will make it chase scenery. So I carefully weighed each one and removed any trace of a sprue then for good measure I put them in a rock tumbler for a couple of hours .Makes em pretty,shiny and black.
I think the problem with a smooth rifle back in the day was that in the wilderness one wouldn't be able to weigh the balls to sort out the light ones so a rifled gun would shoot the light ones better than the smooth rifle under those conditions.
I have a book "The Great Guns"by Peterson and Elman,on page 84 it says in Basel Switzerland in 1605 they had a shooting contest and a separate  event for rifles and smoothbores the smooth bores were shooting at a 30'' diameter target at 570 feet This would have been off hand with a wheelock. Wish I'd a been there.

[Dphariss]

I wonder if the choke itself affects accuracy as much as the ability to load a tighter patching   My 12 bore has a constricted skeet or IC choke that has been reamed out from a full choke.  Due to the barrel constriction it is more difficult to load a thicker patch.  As the gun only weighs about 6.5 pounds or so I do not shoot a lot of roundball out of it.  Some with jug chokes claim little change in accuracy.

DP

This could be true in the modern context. But in the historical context chokes were unknown until the 1840s or so and not used in MLs much even then it seems.
Many English ML shotgun barrels were tapered being smaller in the middle and loose at both ends
So I find it amusing when re-enactors who agonize over materials and sewing stitches have their SB choked.
Many modern "slug gun" shotguns  now have rifled barrels.

Dan