Author Topic: Some thoughts about learning to engrave  (Read 16190 times)

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7013
Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« on: February 10, 2011, 08:13:50 AM »
Hi Folks,
A couple of recent threads posed by folks trying to get started with engraving motivated me to start this thread.  For most people, engraving probably is one of the most intimidating skills to learn.  You get everything just right on your gun, the inletting, architecture, inlays, carving, and finish, and then risk it all trying to scratch in a few attractive lines.  Unfortunately, the books and videos available are somewhat helpful but their value is pretty limited.  If you are lucky to have access to a class with a good instructor, that is probably the best option.  If you are like me, your options for training are limited and you end up mostly teaching yourself.  Also, the intimidating nature of engraving tends to make folks reluctant to spend much money on it when they begin because they are not sure they can do it and they don’t want to waste limited funds.  Consequently, the perceived difficulty of engraving becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for some because they don’t invest money in the critical rudiments and thus find it too hard to do and give up trying.  With that in mind, I thought I would share a few observations about the process of learning to engrave: 

Don’t get hung up on the tools.  You only need a large square graver for outlining and borders, a small square for shading and details, and a small flat for removing backgrounds.  You can make chisel handles and a lightweight chasing hammer will do.  Spend some money on a good setup for sharpening.  I recommend stones and the Lindsay templates but there are other options.  Just make sure you have a system that does the job well and is easy to do.  You must sharpen your graver very, very often and the last thing you need is some awkward setup that makes sharpening a tedious chore.  It should just take a few moments with little fuss or you simply won't do it when you should.

Spend some thought and money on lighting and magnification.  You cannot engrave what you cannot see.  You must see the tip of the graver clearly or you will never engrave details very well.  In addition, create a vise system that allows you to spin the work and tilt it as needed.  Lighting, magnification, and a vise system are very important and unless you spend the time and resources on obtaining some workable version of them, engraving will be intimidating indeed. 

Don't try to do scroll work until you master engraving a line that is even and straight.  Practice thin and thick lines that follow a border or another line.  Master parallel lines and the thick and thin border.  In fact, if you never do anything more than a thick and thin border you will have achieved a lot. That border is often all you need to make an inlay, lock, butt plate, or trigger guard look like a million bucks. 

After mastering lines, try scolls, but first learn to draw them smoothly and transfer your designs to the metal.  Here is where a problem arises.  First, if you cannot draw a smooth curve or good design, you cannot engrave it either.  Second, you need a precise image of your design on the metal.  Many buy layout white or Chinese white, coat the metal and draw the design on with a pencil.  Probably most of you are not steady enough to draw a smooth clean design without "sketching" it with the pencil.  Sketching results in fuzzy imprecise lines that are difficult to follow accurately with the graver because the width of the sketched pencil mark is several times the width of the engraved line.  The imprecision of the line is often enough to make your engraved results look rough.  If you draw directly on the metal, use a very sharp pencil for a thin line and practice drawing smooth shapes without resorting to "sketching" them. I suggest that you use a mechanical pencil with 0.3mm leads sharpened to a tiny point using sand paper or a fine file.  Better are the transfer solutions available to copy images from transparencies produced by inkjet or laserjet printers.  Keep in mind, that after having a sharp graver and learning to cut a smooth line, nothing improves your engraving more than a good design accurately transferred to the metal. 

At first don't worry about fancy cuts, angling the graver for making lines grow thick, removing background and other sophisticated methods and skills.  Just learn to cut smooth lines of even thickness.  If you master that and can draw designs well you will produce engraving equal to or probably better than the vast majority of work found on original long rifles.  Finally, there are many technical details and methods to eventually absorb, but the few things I mentioned are the key things that I found really mattered as I learned and continue to learn.   

dave

"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Silhouette4570

  • Guest
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2011, 10:19:50 AM »


Here's a link that will answer many questions. It has definitions and many illustrations.  http://www.engravingglossary.com/index.htm

Jack

Offline Captchee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2011, 04:13:47 PM »
 Very good advise Dave .
 If I may add   some .
   When your learning , you first  design cuts should be on a practice plate  not on the gun . If you cant get the   practice plate to look good , its not going to look good on  your rifle .
 I would also suggest learning a transfer method so once you do have a nice design drawn up , you can transfer it to your practice plate .

Offline KLMoors

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2011, 05:40:49 PM »
The hardest part for me is the drawing. I practice the drawing by tracing other peoples work to learn the proper shapes. This will teach your muscle memory and eyes so you can then get flowing lines on your own. Every time I see some nice engraving, I save the pic to  my PC. Later I come along and blow up, or shrink down the pic till it is somewhere near to real size. Print it out and then  grab the tracing paper and trace, trace, trace. It WILL teach your eyes and muscles.

Another great tip I picked up about drawing it to use a small table you can spin. A spinning table will help in the same way that a spinning vise will. I bought one of those round, wood stool tops that Lowes sells for ten bucks or so, then went to the hardware department and bought one of the spinning metal bases for a lazy susan. Another ten bucks or so.  Attach the lazy susan base to the stool base, then set the whole rig on a small towel on the workbench, and you've got yourself a spinning drawing table. It really helps to smooth out your curves to be able to spin it as you draw. I got this tip from Chris Decamillis in his scroll drawing class that he does on line.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 05:45:37 PM by Capt. Fred »

Offline KLMoors

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2011, 10:21:36 PM »
I found a set of rubber stamps on ebay of script lettering. They are too big to actually use on a gun but they help you practice lettering. I got mine a year or so ago for under ten bucks. Here's a link to one currently listed. Get an ink pad and you can stamp these letters all over your practice plates. They work great for practicing the curves and line weight as well as the letters themselves.

http://cgi.ebay.com/JoAnn-Craft-Essentials-Alpha-Number-Script-Stamp-set-/280627036225?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4156acc041


Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19487
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2011, 10:38:04 PM »
Quote
I found a set of rubber stamps on ebay of script lettering. They are too big to actually use on a gun but they help you practice lettering. I got mine a year or so ago for under ten bucks. Here's a link to one currently listed. Get an ink pad and you can stamp these letters all over your practice plates. They work great for practicing the curves and line weight as well as the letters themselves.
In my crude attempts to engrave my name (so far on bottom of barrel only!) I can not make the letters consistent. A friend of mine showed me how to transfer a signature from a master using beeswax, black powder and Scotch tape. Never have tried it (lack of a good master copy!). I wondered if I could get a rubber stamp made of my initials (signature) and use it to make an ink stamp on the barrel. Looks like it would work. Has anyone tried it?
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline A.Merrill

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 797
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2011, 01:25:10 AM »
    Mr. Person,   thank you for taking the time to post this. Its people like you that make this web site the best there is.    AL
Alan K. Merrill

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2011, 03:28:26 AM »
Great post, except that comment "you get everything just right on your gun". You mean I can't start engraving until then ???? I would never get started. The good news is that when you really study old guns you start to notice that most of the old gunsmiths weren't all that great either. Some were better thanothers, but even a less than perfect execution on a good design is still good design, whereas perfect execution on a poor design is still a poor design.

To the guys that have problems with lettering; get some older mechanical drawing text books and study the lettering chapters. There are a few letters that require special attention. As an old draftsman I can tell you that a uniform lettering is one of the more difficult tasks in drafting. Any little difference stands out like the person out of step in a marching band. There is a reason that most rifles are signed in script.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7013
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2011, 03:50:07 AM »
Greybeard,
That looks very nice.  Yes lettering is one of the hardest tasks.  I am also an amateur just like you.  I build and engrave guns just for me, my family, and friends.  I am simply addicted to the decorative arts of old. 

Al, thank you.  I cannot overestimate how important this forum has been for me too.

dave

"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7907
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2011, 04:06:32 AM »
I have little background in these arts yet and find that those gravers are too small for me to handle without alot of hand cramps so i made one out of an old three corner file ground to shape and sharpend. This is about twice as long and alot more managable than those that I bought. You can grind to just about any shape you want. Now all I need is alot of practice.  Gary

Offline B. Hey

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2011, 04:32:53 AM »
Dave, I haven't set the first graver to brass, but when I do, your advice will surely add to my confidence. Thanks so very much for sharing your wisdom. Take care .. Bill

Offline Paddlefoot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1844
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2011, 04:12:20 AM »
A good source for help with lettering is the old books that Speedball used to publish. They go into spacing for balanced light and dark space. All sorts of lettering styles and decoration. Very similar to Ron Smith's scroll design books and Meeks book on engraving. I'm about to dive into it yet again after buying the Lindsey template to sharpen the graver with. Getting the tool right has always given me fits.
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

DFHicks

  • Guest
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2011, 03:36:32 AM »
I am a returning newcomer having put together a few simple rifles 30 years ago.  With retirement I am trying to get back into it again.  I have started a rifle and the idea of learning even some simple line engraving intrigues me.  I have watched the on-line video of a fellow using the Lindsy templates.  It sure seems to be a direct approach that should give consistent sharpening to a graver.  My guess is that it would be best for me to start learning with just a square graver.  My question to those who use the Lindsy system which template works best for the 45 degree face and appropriate angle heels of the square cutter?  He has a half dozen or so templates.  Like everybody says this forum is really great _ oh to have had it back then.
Thanks to you all.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2011, 05:10:36 AM »
Quote
I found a set of rubber stamps on ebay of script lettering. They are too big to actually use on a gun but they help you practice lettering. I got mine a year or so ago for under ten bucks. Here's a link to one currently listed. Get an ink pad and you can stamp these letters all over your practice plates. They work great for practicing the curves and line weight as well as the letters themselves.
In my crude attempts to engrave my name (so far on bottom of barrel only!) I can not make the letters consistent. A friend of mine showed me how to transfer a signature from a master using beeswax, black powder and Scotch tape. Never have tried it (lack of a good master copy!). I wondered if I could get a rubber stamp made of my initials (signature) and use it to make an ink stamp on the barrel. Looks like it would work. Has anyone tried it?
Dennis


I use beewax and tallow mixed pretty hard. Put this on ala Lynton MacKenzie's video and then just write on it with a sharp pencil or a fine mechanical with a soft lead. If I don't like how it looks I wipe it off or use a small eraser on the offending parts.



Most originals are signed with a script signature. so I just write it one kinda old style and cut it.
Block letters are much harder than script.


Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

jeager58

  • Guest
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2011, 07:35:18 PM »
I'm not a good engraver yet but that hasn't stopped me from trying.  I started with flat brass sheet stock. then moved to engraving on the tang. If you mess it up its around 15.00 dollars to replace.   the barrel and the lock are the two places that I wont try.  everything else can be replaced with a minimum of cost. just my thoughts....Phil

Offline Blacksmoke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 868
  • "Old age and treachery beats youth and skill"
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2011, 09:54:00 PM »
 Thanks Dave:  You have made some excellent points for the beginner engraver.   I teach beginning engraving and the first subject that we spend time on is "drawing".  A crappy drawing means a crappy engraving.  Learning to draw is not difficult!   What most people say to me and themselves is " I can't draw worth a @#$%"    My answere to them is: "if I ever hear you say that again I will slap you"!  It will take practice , practice, practice and more practice!!    Learn to draw straight lines without a straight edge and curves without a template.   Then work into small scrolls without "elbows".    Drawing on paper is the foundation of good engraving.  Of course there is a lot more to learn - too much to cover here.   But the main point that I want to make is: "be positive in your attitude towards yourself - you can do it"!     ;)
  Hugh Toenjes
H.T.

MarkEngraver

  • Guest
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2011, 05:17:21 AM »
Good thread !  I figured I'd chime in with my 2 cents.

   One of the things I would suggest is that you paint your practice plates with a flat white primer spray paint. I use Walmarts "ColorPlace" brand, less than a dollar. Paint it just enough to cover, too thin and it won't stay on, too thick and it will be gummy. Now you can draw on it and erase it till you are pleased with your design drawing, then cut right through the paint into the plate metal. When your done, remove the paint with 0000 steel wool, the paint is so thin it will come off no problem, finish removing any paint left with an old tooth brush and acetone. 
   This is the way I do all engraving projects. Obviously you can't do it this way if in the stock, so the part to be engraved must be removed from the wood and mounted in some way to be clamped into the ball vice. But the paint trick sure helps with the drawing part. Also if your design has a mirror reversal to it or repeat, you can draw one part of it then place tracing paper over the design, go over the design with a soft lead pencil, turn the tracing paper over and position it opposite the design to be mirrored and now you go over it again with the pencil and you get a nice graphite transfer on to the paint !
(I make these and use them all the time for Colt SAA pistols, saves on drawing time when you have to repeat a design over and over)
   Gravers wise, I grind my own.  This is what I was taught. The Lindsey system didn't exist when I was learning, so I have no experience with it, but I know guys that swear by it.  I buy 1/8" blanks. You can get then from places like ENCO for less than a dollar each ! A whole lot cheaper ! I shape them into onglettes and flat bottomed gravers so they can be sharpened on a simple Disk Sander with a table on the side for setting angles to be ground. You just have to be careful and quench alot when sharpening so you don't burn the steel, it's just what I'm use to. I set the heels by hand, again it's what I was taught and a "feel" I have developed over years of engraving.
  I have found that High Speed Steel is all you really need for 98% of engraving jobs, then you might step up to 5% cobalt for something a little harder, but I find 10% cobalt and carbide too brittle.
For the type of  metals encountered in a muzzle loader HSS is all that's needed, save your money !
   The best practice you can do is to cut straight lines, over and over and over !  This is like practicing your scales when learning to play an instrument. Lay out straight lines going across the practice plate an 1/8" apart, cut those, then cut lines between your lines.  When you've gotten a feel for the lines then lay out concentric circles an 1/8" apart with a compass moving towards the center getting smaller and smaller. Cut those, then cut circles between the circles.  I still do this somewhat when I'm changing between metals. Brass requires a different feel than steel so I will make a few lines to warm up to it.
   Well that's probably more like 2$ rather than 2 cents. 
   Hugh is right, It's all about practice, and then some more practice. Shoot! after 12 years of engraving guns I'm still practicing !

Keep on cutting ! Mark

Offline cmac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 695
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2011, 03:38:22 PM »
A guy once told me that he practices drawing scrolls, lines, etc. every morning at the breakfast table. This helps with the engraving and carving, and you keep what you like the look of to go back to for use.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2011, 12:06:02 AM »

   Well that's probably more like 2$ rather than 2 cents. 
   


That's worth a lot more than $2 IMO.

I'm waiting to get the sharpening system before I get started practicing too much. I just can't sharpen these things by hand.

While far from a professional engraver getting the sharpened right, after a lot of hair pulling, sure help me a lot.

Dan

He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

MarkEngraver

  • Guest
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2011, 03:39:54 AM »
Hey Dan,  What ever gets the job done !
I hope you've got some hair left  !?

Mark

Offline kutter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 715
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2011, 05:34:56 AM »
Lurking for awhile now, thought I'd join in the conversation.
Been engraving for some time now. When starting out, don't clutter your bench and your mind with alot of different tools. Keep it simple as others have stated. Actually a flat graver sharpened with just a touch of a heel on it will also double as a square point when set up on one of either of it's two edges. I cut with one like that for a long time.

For steel,,a 45 or 50 degree face and a 10 to 15 degree heel will yield good results.
Softer materials (brass, copper, silver, gold) a sharper angle on the face and less on the heel.
They shear much more easily and an edge usd for cutting steel, while it will cut the softer metals, will tend to push them along as well making for a furrowed/plowed looking cut instead of a clean one.

Too long of a heel on the bottom of any graver will kick out the side as you go around corners and leave those little kicks on the outside edge of the cut with each hammer strike. Shortest heel possible. A long heel is of a benefit in cutting long straight lines sometimes as it acts as a guide riding in the cut. Not usefull for much else though.

I learned to sharpen by the hand held method against an oil stone, then finishing the edge and putting the heel on by dragging the tool backwards accross an emery board. Usually 800grit. Later I used a diamond lap plate that knife sharpeners use. Still have one and still use it. A handy item.,,about 1.5" x 3.5"
Then I went to mechanical sharpening fixture & wheel when I changed to carbide tools from the HS and cobalt when I started cutting Winchester 21's by contract. They were the nastiest things around to cut and HS tools wouldn't get very far. Being a professional tool sharpener was not my goal.
The new production 21 from New Britain is easy cutting 8620 steel.

Little need to go to anything more than HS, cobalt, MoMax, etc for muzzle loading parts. Carbide tools need special diamond laps to sharpen ($$). You get longer point life if sharpened correctly,,much less if not done right.

I've always saved and transfered patterns from old work the same way. I take a piece of card stock,,a business card works excellently),,,rub a bit of your transfer wax on the side with the writing on it.  On the blank side,,wet it just slightly. I give it a quick couple swipes of the tongue but if leaving a DNA sample troubles you, just very lightly dampen it with a wet cloth,,very lightly.
Now take the damp side and place it down onto the already engraved surface you want to save a print of. The wax covered back of the card is then burnished as the card is held securely in place with your other hand. I use a small curved steel burnisher to do the job rubbing back and forth over the back of the card. The wax coating will prevent the card from tearing. You can use any smooth hard piece of metal, plastic, bone, etc.
It doesn't take much  pressure,,and you can see and feel the card embossing itself into the engraved (or stamped) impression. Then carefully lift the card from the work, carefull not to tear it, and let it dry for a few minutes. Now you have an imbossed reversed image of the work. If done right, every minor detail will show.

To transfer to another surface,,dot the surface with transfer wax (even a small ball of modeling clay pounched over the surface will leave enough 'tack' for the transfer). Then take the card embossed image you just made, rub the surface with a charcoal pencil to highlight the ridges (I flick the card to knock of excess charcoal powder),,lay it down on the metal (or wood if you're carving) and lightly rub the back again with the burnisher to transfer the charcoal to the tacky transfer wax surface. It takes very little pressure to transfer,,sometimes I just run my finger over the pattern to transfer it. Lift the card and inspect. If misplaced, wipe off and redo.

The cards can be used over and over and hold up very well. I have some patterns I took up to 40 years ago, patterns and lettering lifted from original pieces. They still see use in restoration work.
Some I've never used as they have never been brushed with charcoal. I collected them as they came by thinking they may be of use sometime. They may still be someday.

Makeing a smoke pull/print w/tape is an excellent way to save an almost photo image of engraving and I still sometimes do it along with an embossed pattern for transfering. But the smoke pulls are pretty much useless in themselves for transfer work.

I lay out scroll work with the transfer wax covered surface and draw right on that. Actually it started out being mutton tallow and bees wax concoction but over the years I've replenished it with other stuff like crayons, bow-string wax, etc. As long as it stays the right consistancy to do the job. It's pea green now from the last crayon.
I never cared for the Chinese White to draw on but alot of people do. Find what you're comfortable with and go with it.  I draw only the main scroll lines,,no minor scroll, no detail within the scrolls themselves. I add all that by eye as I go along but some engravers draw everything out.
Again, everyone does it a bit different. It's the results that matter.

My engraving hammer is a craftsman 4oz(?) ball peen. I've used that for all those years. I have a couple of other chasing hammers but just feel they're too light for me,,never felt comfortable with them. I made a couple of hammers and different handles along the way but always came back to Mr. Sears.
Two years ago I had to give up the hammer and go over to an air assisted graver. I hated too, but it was either that or give it up all together. Injuries, arthritis & a nerve disorder just plainly catch up with you. At least the air power has allowed me to continue instead of watching from the sidelines.

Just recently back into BP and building a rifle. I finished one this past fall. My 4th rifle.
My first 3 were built before I was 19y/o.
I completed #4 at 61y/o,,,so I've been away from the 'game' for a while.
Good to be back.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 05:35:44 AM by kutter »

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2019, 09:19:36 PM »
 I personally know most of the best engravers in the USA. Even the best engravers will tell you they struggle with drawing designs. I am a master engraver in the FEGA and most of the time it will take me two to four days to come up with a good design then I can cut it in a few hours. Smart dog gave some very good advise. You not only need to learn how to sharpen your tools but you need to understand the geometry and why they need to be that way. Advanced engraving is very complex but the type done on American long rifles is very simple in comparison. When you draw a design it is not a good idea to cut it the same day. Put it aside and look at it the next day or look at it in the mirror and the mistakes will be more evident. Buy some art books they are cheap. Make up your mind you will not be a good engraver in a week or two. I have been engraving for over 20 years and I am still learning. For what you are going to do I recommend Lyndsey's templates for sharpening. you only need about two of them to start with.  Sam Alfano has a very good video on Hammer and chisel engraving. Get that. https://www.grs.com/product/sam-alfano-hammer-chisel-complete-kit/
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Justin Urbantas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
Re: Some thoughts about learning to engrave
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2019, 06:43:34 PM »
Thanks for the advice, guys. I'm trying to get in more practice and setting aside a blunderbuss I'm finishing until I'm ready to engrave it.  I picked up Shippers book a while ago. One thing I noticed is that he suggests a 5º heel angle. I found that difficult as it digs in more.  I think 10º-15º would be easier.