Need an'' oil finish'' walnut that is waterproof

[stuart cee dub]

A question for the collective wisdom of the board ...

I am just finishing the sanding on a walnut stocked musket . Original muskets evidently were finished with a lead based  boiled linseed oil at the armory ,which, even if available, would not be a consideration.I do not want to use a hard varnish but want to replicate the soft looking finish of an original musket .

In the past on trade guns I have used a ''royal beeswax and some kind of  oil concoction'' a friend of mine made up some years ago  from a recipe he got from an antique dealer.It is fairly waterproof ,melted on with a heat gun, and polymerizes over time. But it's almost gone along with the secret recipe  . I do not want to use straight linseed oil is not waterproof and  doesn't really dry.
My desire is to seal the stock and am not concerned with materials authenticity but more interested in sealing/waterproofing with the ''look'' of the real thing .Hopefully this is something readily available .What about a two layer finish ?

I have used in the past on long rifles an oil/ poly floor finish that was wonderful, tough and so waterproof it was the envy of the local ducks but it is  too ''hard looking'' .Before that  Homer Formby's tung oil varnish worked almost as well .But that too looks like my kitchen floor. All the muskets I have handled  looked to be oiled (plus dirt patina) and were not varnished guns at all  so my old favorites are out .
 
What are you all using ?

[Mattole]

I would love to know the same thing, and see photos of the finished product as well. Thanks for bringing this topic up!

[keweenaw]

Those tung oil finishes are tung oil with resins added to essentially make a varnish.  You will find you get a very different surface is you use pure tung oil.  The first coats go on to the point of saturation and they'll completely soak into the wood.  As soon as the applied pure tung oil doesn't completely soak in switch to VERY thin coats and wipe if off with a paper towel after it has just started to go tacky.  The tung oil won't come off when wet  or watermark but it is not a "waterproof" finish.  Of course none of the original finishes were waterproof either.  I don't think you'll find any finish that doesn't build on the surface that is waterproof.  But unless you plan of soaking your gun in the pond for long periods of time I don't see why you would need more waterproofing than what a saturated tung oil finishing job will give. You can do a duplex finish if you're really concerned about water getting in the wood.  Apply several coats or Arm-R-Seal sealer to the wood without letting any build up on the surface then switch to pure tung oil for top coats.  The Arm-R-Seal sealer will penetrate very deeply on the initial coats on unfilled walnut.  I did a test on a piece that had the sealer on it to the point of having a faint surface film.  Water would bed up on it and evaporate without any penetration or other detectable change in the finish or the surface.

Tom

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

1# cut of shellac taken back to bare wood make an excellent sealer to significantly slow the movement of humidity through the wood. and oil or medioum oil varnish like Chambers will take care of the liquid such as rain etc.... it is not synthetic or hard and so you can rub it back with rottenstone and oil etc to get a very soft, in-the wood look.   

Another thought, that you might try on some test pieces is Kramer's Best Antique Improver.  Check out what they say about moisture on this page..  http://www.kramerize.com/using_on_wood.htm

I tried some as a single finish on some cherry and it turned out welll and was able to make water bead ......... The good thing is you can rewipe it every six months or year or so and strengthen the finish.

Tim

[Longknife]

 Re: stock finish
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2010, 10:47:04 AM »     

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Here is my method for a completely waterproof finish, now this is NOT wear proof, no wood finish is wear proof. It is also NOT PC so if you're a purist stop reading now.
1) Coat the stock thoroughly with Thompsons Waterseal, in lock mortices, barrel channel, pour some down the rr hole, saturate it completely, let is soak a while  and keep applying to areas that soak it up. Let it dry over night.

2) Do #1 again, let it dry over night.

3) Mix TWS 50/50 with Formbys low gloss Tung Oil, apply to all areas, lock mortice, barrel channel etc.....wipe it off... and let ot dry over night.

4) Do #3 again, let it dry over night.

5) Use pure Formbys and paint it on, inside lock mortice, barrel channel and hand rub it into exposed areas. wipLet dry over night.


6) Hand rub your next coat(s) of pure FBYs'on extieror of stock surfaces only.  Let it dry over night.

#7 Repeat #6 as many times as necessary to give the finish you desire.

[smart dog]

Hi Stuart,
There are many ways to skin that cat.  No finish is completely waterproof unless you encase the gun in epoxy or polymer.  However, some are very water resistent and the posts above describe some good methods.  I use my guns in one of the rainiest environments in North America, southeastern Alaska.  To protect my guns, I seal the wood first with a mix of 25% polyurethane varnish, 25% polymerized tung oil, and 50% turpentine.  I paint coats of that mix on the stock until the grain starts to fill, at which point I decide if I want a low or higher sheen.  For a low sheen, I will hand rub in a few scant coats of polymerized tung oil.  For a higher sheen, I build up coats of tung oil and then rub them back with rottenstone and linseed oil.  Polymerized tung oil will dry nicely and is very water resistent.  I also bed my barrels in acraglass for a little strengthening of the forestock and sealing the barrel channel.  I posted pictures of different guns I made using the poly-tung mixture, one with a higher sheen and another with a lower sheen.

dave

[JCKelly]

Just some thoughts. If the finish is waterproof it can be susceptible to peeling off should water get into the wood from some unfinished area. Such as under the buttplate, barrel channel or under any inlays. Waterproof finishes under wet condtions do what paint does on your house - peel off eventually. Also like on the butt of my Belgian Browning that otherwise survived a flooded basement.

US flint muskets were finished with linseed oil, I don't know what kind. I do know that the armory did not raise the grain of the walnut before applying this finish. So now a collector is happy to find a musket with that 'prickly" wood, that is, one on which the grain has raised over the last century or two, from moisture permeating the linseed oil film. Means no one has refinished the stock.

Percussion American rifles did have some manner of varnish finish, which I know only from a couple of old family rifles. Others are more knowlegable in this field.

[Ed Wenger]

Stuart,

Like Dave said, there's many ways to skin a cat...  Another method that has worked for me, but isn't "historically accurate", is the use of Permalyn.  I use the stock sealer, not the finish.  Although their both the same thing, the sealer is just thinned...  Anyway, brush on the sealer 'till it won't take any more, then let it dry over night.  If there's sheen present, you can rub back with steel wool.  It won't fill the grain of the wood, but it does give a hand rubbed oil appearance to the wood.

Ed

[TPH]

JCKelly, good, no, excellent thoughts. While I understand the desire for "sealing" the wood, is it really necessary? At the armories at Springfield and Harpers Ferry, hot linseed oil was applied by dunking the stocks into the oil. Yes, it was a different linseed oil than we have commonly available today but there are a number of archived posts on properly preparing linseed oil to get what is a very similar product to what was used. Look especially for those by Eric Kettenberg and Chris Immel, there will be others as well.

stuart cee dub , you don't say what kind of "walnut stocked musket" you are building but you do say you want to seal it and maintain the appearance of the originals. Why not try the oil? If you look at original muskets from 150 - 225 years ago or any walnut stocked US military gun before WW2 for that matter, few if any exhibit cracks or swelling so the linseed oil on a properly and well cured stock must have done the job pretty well? Military arms lead a generally tough and unsheltered life when on issue.

Personally, I have always used the store bought linseed oil and have had no problems with any of the muskets I have built over the years, but I have been trying to get the courage to try Chris's method of "boiling" the oil and hope to do it soon.

Now, you have been given some excellent advice above, better than mine for certain, so do what you feel is best after consideration, but there is a lot to be said for linseed oil applied to properly cured wood.

Sorry guys, I'll go sit in the corner now.....  


Edit: Dave, I really admire the finish on the on the M1863 and the flintlock you show above, beautiful!

[gregg]

I think I would goggle up Tung Oil
Pure Tung Oil like japan used in WWII on there rifles is a different
animal than the stuff sold for home use. Dull and it sounds like water proof.
It was said the Jap rifles stocks would not rot in the jungles like they should have?
If you look at tung finish that is under magication it is very checked giving the dull finish.
There again you have to go to a pure tung finish. I looked this all up many years ago
and don't remember it all like I should.  

[gregg]

Sorry guys, I'll go sit in the corner now.....  


Edit: Dave, I really admire the finish on the on the M1863 and the flintlock you show above, beautiful!

Yes very much so.

[hoochiepapa]

How about "conservators wax" from Leevalley.com? Used in museums to coat everything from paintings to guns.

[TPH]

I think I would goggle up Tung Oil
Pure Tung Oil like japan used in WWII on there rifles is a different
animal than the stuff sold for home use. Dull and it sounds like water proof.
It was said the Jap rifles stocks would not rot in the jungles like they should have?
If you look at tung finish that is under magication it is very checked giving the dull finish.
There again you have to go to a pure tung finish. I looked this all up many years ago
and don't remember it all like I should. 

Gregg, you are correct about the results that the Japanese achieved in the finish of their firearms during and well before WW2, but it was not tung oil. They used a lacquer that had been around in Japan for centuries - Urushi lacquer. It was a traditional finish that could have a high gloss like that shown on many Japanese rifles, even those that were heavily used. It resists abrasion, rot and moisture at least as well if not better than any western finish (including many of the plastics) and at one time was held as a secret by Japanese craftsmen. One warning, the Urushi lacquer can cause a severe reaction similar  to our poison oak among some people who work with it. This reaction was discovered by some US servicemen bringing surrendered Japanese rifles back after WW2 who decided to start "sporterizing" their captured rifles while still on transports .

Urushi is occasionally available in this country but is hard to find and pretty expensive (a seller on eBay, believe it or not, is the easiest to find), especially if you only find it available from a source in Japan.

Sheesh, there I go again, wandering off in an odd direction.....

[Blacksmoke]

Pure thick Tung oil is what I use.  It is supplied to the marine industry for wooden boats - that ought to tell you something!  However I will thin it down with japan dryers first before applying to "seal" the stock whether it is maple or walnut.  Then when the wood cannot "drink" any more I will start to rub up a finish with linseed or the like.  the whole process takes several weeks to finish.     That's the way I do it,       Hugh Toenjes

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Check out some of the recipes on this site as well as their products.... My bet is that pine tar and turpentine somehow made it into some of those linseed oil varnishes.. Don't have any proof but These products were certainly in great supply........
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=173&familyName=Pine+Tar

[stuart cee dub]

The prickly finish is a great piece of information TPH.The gun in question is a 61' springfield that is a mix of a contractor lock , old furniture and a new whitacre barrel on a dunlap stock .

I happen to have an original old colt spl.model that has the prickly finish you described .That is the benchmark  to dupicate as far as the look goes .
Sometimes I end up shooting in inclement conditions (Rain )so I want to stabilize the wood as best I can .I will probably thinly bed the breech too .

Dave ,your '63 is lovely .
Did you tint the walnut with a touch of red?

The thinning down of some of the standard finishes seems like the place to start. Then maybe using linseed oil just on the top .  

[gregg]

Sheesh, there I go again, wandering off in an odd direction.....

Still very interresting wandered off or not.

[smart dog]

Hi Stuart,
Yes, I did 2 things.  I painted the stock with a wash of black aniline dye in water then sanded it back so the color only remained in the grain.  I tinted the poly-tung oil sealer with a tiny bit of red aniline dye.  Incidentally, the musket and the English rifle below it were made from blanks sawn from the same walnut tree, which I cut and milled >30 years ago.  The flintlock was coated with yellow dye to eliminate the purple-brown undertone of black walnut and give it a warmer orangy tone similar to English walnut.

dave

[stuart cee dub]

I want to thank you everyone who responded .I am always impressed at the depth and breadth of information on the board .There will be a bit of experimeting going on with some scrap before settling on the sealing material .While I like working with american walnut,it  is soooo porous . And there seems to be  a lot of natural variation in the density of it from one blank to another .Darn those natural products!

Years ago on in ,I think ,Kennedy's book on gun stocking there was some mention that some US servicemen in the Pacific developed allergic reactions after handling Arisaka's which he claimed were finished in Tung oil.
Anyone ever hear of such a reaction to Tung oil finish in modern times ?  

My nephew is allegic to just about everything especially tree nuts (including just handling acorns) and he is interested in trying shooting .

[TPH]

stuart cee dub, he shouldn't have any trouble with an Arisaka as the US soldiers developed problems when scraping and especially when sanding the stocks of their "captured" Japanese rifles that had been finished, not with tung oil (the Japanese did not use it) but with Urushi lacquer. None that I have ever heard of had problems with the dried finish, the same with modern "tung oil" which is usually not real tung oil anyway.

[keweenaw]

I've never heard of anyone allergic to pure tung oil.  If you buy from woodcraft or some other source, pure tung oil, that's what you'll get.  Anything called Tung Oil Finish, like Formby's isn't and might have only a little or no tung oil in it.

Tom

[John Archer]

If you're allergic to nuts you can have a bad reaction to tung oil.

John.

[TPH]

If you're allergic to nuts you can have a bad reaction to tung oil.

John.

John, that is very interesting and I don't doubt you one bit but you mean that the reaction occurs when applying tung oil, not when the finish is dry, correct?

[keweenaw]

I stand corrected.  This is from Wikipedia:
"As the source of tung oil is a nut, people with nut allergies often report adverse reactions to contact with (or even the odour of) tung oil. Reactions can be severe in some cases. While tung oil has been used for many centuries as a finish for kitchen items such as wooden bowls and cutting boards, some individuals must avoid its use."  Other than that it's considered one of the best food safe finishes one can use.

There is an excellent discussion of Tung oil, including its drying properties and chemistry at http://lumberjocks.com/topics/1274

Tom

[John Archer]

John, that is very interesting and I don't doubt you one bit but you mean that the reaction occurs when applying tung oil, not when the finish is dry, correct?

My info is secondhand..I have a friend whose oldest daughter is very allergic to nuts. They won't allow anything finished with tung oil in the house.

John.