Types of Brass

[Ohioan]

Following the link from the thread on Silver (www.metalliferous.com), and then further research on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass about brass, I discovered that there are lots of different types of brass. 

What type of brass is best for patchboxes, inlays, etc.  (low brass, rich low brass, yellow brass, naval brass, cartridge brass, common or rivet brass, etc)  What is a good thickness?


 I need to get some sheets of brass for practice engraving.  Of course, I'll look at a scrap yard first. 

[Metalshaper]

I need to get some sheets of brass for practice engraving.  Of course, I'll look at a scrap yard first. 

Ohioan,

 From what I'm told, brass is the worst thing to learn on! and from personal experience, I tend to agree.      "we" need to find some low carbon shim stock, and try learning on that.


Respect Always
Metalshaper

[Ohioan]

what makes brass the worst to learn on? 

I just figured since I'm going to be engraving on brass, brass would be what I would want to practice on.

[George F.]

I found that very interesting  to read . I knew that there were different kinds of brass, but not many.  ....Geo.

[T*O*F]

"we" need to find some low carbon shim stock

You can go to a large auto body paint and supply store and buy 3' x3' pieces of sheet metal for practice plates, or depending on where you live just cut some from the junk car sitting in your front yard.   

[Metalshaper]

I might be wrong, ( usually am ! ) but brass tends to be somewhat gummy in the way it cuts. The two different engravers that I've talked to, bitched and complained about starting out in brass. Said it was the worst, for trying to use as a learning material.

 they recomended starting off is LC steel shim , because of the ease in which in cuts. each recomended,  learn the sharpening, control and technique of using your engravers, then move on into brass.

Just passing on what I was told??

Maybe I'd be better off leaving it to Jerry or Acer to answer!

Respect Always
Metalshaper

[Metalshaper]

Fox,

Thanks for the idea.. Not many cars in the front yard, here in Overland Park!    "What would the neighbors think!!??

I'll check around.. Thanks!

Respect Always
Metalshaper

[keweenaw]

Brass is kinda soft or gummy and tends to do what it wants to with your engraving tool.

Most traditional brass of the type that was used on longrifles is what we call yellow brass.  It's about 70% copper and 30% zinc and may have 1% lead in it to help in casting.  It's a good compromise material - casts fairly well, isn't too brittle, is somewhat malleable, cuts and files pretty well.  Other brass compositions are better for each of these properties but who wants a brittle cast trigger guard or a very malleable one for that matter?  Prior to the mid 1700's there would not have been much rolled or sheet brass available.  Methinks that elaborate patch boxes only became practical things to make about the end of the revolutionary war when rolled sheet brass became fairly common.  Prior to that many of the brass patch boxes where made from cast yellow brass as were the guards and butt plates. 

All of the different types of brass available and in commercial use make it difficult to just grab a brunch of scrap "brass" valves, fittings, etc. to use for doing castings.  Some of that stuff isn't even brass at all, it's bronze with tin in it instead of zinc.

Tom

[Ohioan]

Metalshaper, I appreciate your input, I just like to know "why".  I'm like an inquisitive 4 year old child.

[Metalshaper]

Metalshaper, I appreciate your input, I just like to know "why".  I'm like an inquisitive 4 year old child.

My wife says I have ADD. . always find a  "OOOh Shiny" and go running off on a tangent!!    Knowledge is good!  I sometimes suffer from 'not' being able to convey the idea,, quite as well as I had hoped!

Some of the strip/sheet brass that I have tried to engrave on,  seems to have varying degrees of hardness within the sheet. Probably would be a good idea to anneal it, before I started to practice?? 

Good Luck on your engraving !
I'll be interested, in seeing and hearing about your progress!!

Respect Always
Metalshaper

[caliber45]

OK, guys. I've been wondering about this for a while, and since the subject of brass has been brought up, I might as well ask. Is "cartridge brass" useable for casting triggerguards and buttplates? I shoot cartridge firearms as well as b-p, and can't resist "harvesting" brass that wealthier-than-I shooters leave on the ground in the desert. I reload for several calibers, so I can recycle most of it. However, I don't like 9 mm, and -- naturally -- that's most of what I find. I have a five-gallon bucket of it in my shop. Could I melt that for casting with my oxy-acetylene rig? Would I need to remove those pesky nickel-plated primers before the melt, or would the nickel float to the top for removal? Would I need to add any other metal to the alloy to make it more useable? Any advice (including "don't use it!" . . .) appreciated. Tks! - paulallen

[Jim Filipski]

Ohioan,
If you must practice: Develop your skills on all types of brass & steel. Very seldom will you deal with the same material twice..."unless it is your job"
Learn the way the graver feels in all of it & learn to shape your gravers accordingly. It is you that must adapt to the metals ...unless one has the luxury of only dealing with what he likes to engrave.
Just My 2  cents (and in today's market that ain't much!)
Jim

[jerrywh]

Brass is one of the most difficult metals to engrave. Especially cast brass. It is not consistent in texture or  hardness and often has sand pits in it. Sheet brass is better but not a whole lot. It will help you a lot if you put a 55deg. or 60 deg. face angle on the graver instead of a 45 deg. about a 22 deg. heel angle. Then the grave will not tend to dive on you as much in places.  If your going to engrave it you have to practice on it.  When things go wrong just don't think it always your fault.

[keweenaw]

Cartridge brass will work fine, Wallace is currently using it for the mounts he's selling/using in his classes.   I don't know the answer to your primer question.  The temp of the crucible won't be hot enough to melt the nickel.  Nickel has about the same density as copper but is heavier then zinc.

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

OK, guys. I've been wondering about this for a while, and since the subject of brass has been brought up, I might as well ask. Is "cartridge brass" useable for casting triggerguards and buttplates? I shoot cartridge firearms as well as b-p, and can't resist "harvesting" brass that wealthier-than-I shooters leave on the ground in the desert. I reload for several calibers, so I can recycle most of it. However, I don't like 9 mm, and -- naturally -- that's most of what I find. I have a five-gallon bucket of it in my shop. Could I melt that for casting with my oxy-acetylene rig? Would I need to remove those pesky nickel-plated primers before the melt, or would the nickel float to the top for removal? Would I need to add any other metal to the alloy to make it more useable? Any advice (including "don't use it!" . . .) appreciated. Tks! - paulallen

What a good question! And a good catch! Gather up some of your cartridges and take a good look. If you get some which are "pink" those are not yellow cartridge brass. It is brass C270 or higher; an alloy with a lot more copper in it than what we like for our muzzleloader mountings. You will find this in cheap SKS rounds and some military ball ammo as a disposable cartidge not meant to be reloaded! Good soft yellow brass is quite soft and rare to find in anything except sand castings and cartridge brass. Sheet stock we buy to make our patchboxes, thimbles, toeplates and sideplates out of is the softest sheet you can buy and is C260. This is what the best cartidge brass is made from. We carry it in rectangular sizes in different thicknesses, but you do need to start out your engraving on steel. We have that too! I started engraving by learning to do my name in script on the top barrel flat. Believe me, after you do this name for a while in steel, you can engrave just about anything! Hah! But in all seriousness, start in steel and then non-ferrous metals will feel easy!
Susie

[Dphariss]

MSC sells alloy 260 brass. Nice unleaded yellow brass works well. Dead soft when annealed.  About any thickness and length(to 96" at least) anyone would need. I buy it in 12"x12" usually .040 and .062" thick.
They sell other shapes and alloys as well.

Dan

[T*O*F]

Would I need to remove those pesky nickel-plated primers before the melt, or would the nickel float to the top for removal?

A word of warning!!  For whatever reason, picked up brass often contains hot priming while being devoid of bullet or powder.

One time I was heating cartridge brass in a crucible that contained a lot of .22 rimfire cases.  One of them went off and blew hot cases all over the shop.

Another time I was heating 30-06 cases and one went off.  Shrapnel from the primer imbedded in my finger and had to be surgically removed.

I had visually examined all this brass.  None contained powder or bullet and each had a visible firing pin indent on the rim or primer.

Moral.....soak them in something to kill the priming before heating.  It will burn off during the melting process anyhow.

[Ohioan]

I'm going to stop at the scrap yard down the road and grab some sheet metal when I get off work.    

I have a sheet of brass I bought to make a toe plate that I've been practicing doing straight lines, and some curves on.

I have some scrap brass, not sure what it is, or where it came from, but it is a rose color, and REALLY soft.  The graver dove right in!  

I need to find someone local who engraves  who would be willing to give me a starter lesson.  I have the Jack Brooks DVD on engraving, but nothing beats first person help.

[jerrywh]

Cartridge brass is essentially 260.    260 brass in ,my opinion, is the premier brass for gun mounts. 260 brass is very flexible, nice and soft.   There is a trick to melting small pieces such as cartridges.
  Fist thing I must point out that Brass foundries recommend using at least 30% new brass in the melt. The purpose of this being that new casting brass contains a anti oxidant.   This is =necessary if you want flawless castings.
  Also, If you just throw  a bunch of cartridges in a crucible almost all of the brass will oxidize and be useless for casting. the proper way to prevent that is to first melt a large piece of brass so that there is a mass of molten brass in the crucible, then slowly add the cartridges to the melt.
I also suggest covering the melt with  powdered graphite.  That will hold down the oxidization to a large extent. It is my advise that you first order a bar of new 260 brass and start with that.    Order it from a foundry supplier. Regular bar stock has no anti oxidant in it.  Regular bar stock will make fair castings but not of the same  quality as foundry brass.   You can skim off the graphite just before you pour.

[caliber45]

Thanks much for the info on using cartridge brass for casting. That was the answer I wanted to hear. I'll never run out . . . (Now, if I could just find a source of cast-off pewter, too . . .) Anybody know if plumbers still use lead for flashing, etc.? - paulallen

[caliber45]

Once again, folks, thanks for the cartridge brass-for-casting information. Good stuff, and I appreciate it. Jerrywh, thanks for the advice on oxidation and the powdered graphite to slow that. Snyder, I plan to use oxy-acetylene to melt the brass (max. temp. is 6500 f.). Melting point of nickel is 2647 f., so I'm still concerned about includingthe nickel plated primers. Probably best to go ahead and remove the primers. Thanks again! - paulallen

[Clark Badgett]

I've been studying a little about foundry work, and what Jerry says right on with what others have said elsewhere.

[Kentucky Jeff]

I'm taking the engraving class at Conner Prairie as we speak.  We are all learning on brass plates since most of our engraving will be on brass anyhow.  The practice plates most of us are using are mostly rolled sheet brass which is very uniform and also fairly hard relative to other types of brass.  The softest brass (and the hardest to engrave) is typically sand cast brass.   The injection molded brass like one finds in a Chamber's kit is much harder and more consistent than the sand cast brass.  But the sand cast brass is by no means inferior--indeed its hard to beat it in many places in my book--you can scrape it instead of filing it!  Engraving it just takes a lighter tap with the hammer and better technique since its so soft and the slightest slip or mistake shows up. 

Steel is probably a little easier than brass but it needs to be annealed first--especially cold rolled steel. 

What I have learned is there are all kinds of opinions about what works best etc.  And they are all very subjective because everyone's technique is a little different.

So you just need to dig in and put graver and hammer to metal and start playing around.  Learn the basics on something like a rolled sheet brass practice plate and once you cut several hundred straight and curved practice lines you will be on the road to engraving.  Fretting too much about the proper angle for sharpening a graver is likewise wasted time as you will get 10 opinions from 10 engravers.  The angle is not important. The relationship between the angle of the face and the heel is important as that is what determines the angle of the face to the work. 

We learned how to sharpen our gravers in about 15 minutes.

I made my own practice plates by gluing .040 sheet brass stock I bought at the local hobby store to some oak board.   I didn't anneal it either on the advice of Mr Schippers as he said that no brass is so hard that it can't be engraved without annealing first.    He said he does anneal ALL steel before engraving though

Just get to it--there is no substitute!

[jerrywh]

"Fretting too much about the proper angle for sharpening a graver is likewise wasted time as you will get 10 opinions from 10 engravers. "
   It is true that you will get 10 different opinions from 10 different engravers BUT that is because most of them don't know themselves. It is a case of the blind leading the blind. The angles make a big difference.
  When you ask about a subject such as Engraving or heat treating It is best to ask a professional.
Misinformation is the biggest obstacle to learning this craft. 
  There are also great engravers who just can't teach.  If you ask 10 master engravers that question you won't get much variation. Maybe two different styles. Some use onglettes and others use squares. Steve Lyndsey is unique. 

[JCKelly]

Not to be too much of a smart a--, but sometimes the best brass is the brass you can actually get. Plain old cartridge brass, C260, is the most commonly available in every thickness from foil to plate. It forms well . . .duh, that's why they make cartridge cases of it.
Engraver's Brass, C353 is designed to machine or engrave much better. It forms OK, but may not be readily available any thinner than 1/16"  It is the lead addition that makes it machine/engrave well.
If you want a slightly reddish color, look for Commercial Bronze, C220.
Gilding Metal C210 is almost as red as copper--you know it as bullet jackets.
Here are some names and typical chemistries of brasses available in sheet form from mcmaster.com
Nominal Chemical Analysis of Copper Alloys

Common      Number       Copper     Tin    Zinc    Lead   
Name             

Cartridge Brass   C260   70   --   30   --   

Engravers Brass   C353   61.5   --   37   1.5   

Machinable    C385   57   --   41   2   
Architectural Brass

Commercial Bronze   C220   90   --   10   --   

Gilding Metal   C210   95   --   5   --   

Jim Kelly 45 years a metallurgist