Author Topic: safe non toxic shot  (Read 12076 times)

camerl2009

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safe non toxic shot
« on: February 16, 2011, 02:29:31 AM »
so what safe to use in a muzzleloading shotgun

so what to use to hunt duck's and geese

im not going to use bismuth

what about steel shot in a steel shot wad/cup over the card wads 

Offline axelp

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2011, 02:56:03 AM »
ITX non-toxic shot is what I use for my smoothie when lead is not allowed.

info at: www.tomboboutdoors.com

buy at: www.ballisticproducts.com
Galations 2:20

northmn

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2011, 03:16:15 AM »
In a 12 or 20 bore you can get plastic shot cups for steel.  Unless loaded a little hot they can slug.  to prevent this I have cut off the bottom cup and slit the wad the whole length and load it over a card over powder wad.  It works in my 12.  Some have used paper sleeves but so far I am a bit iffy on them.

DP

Offline WaterFowl

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2011, 04:11:40 AM »
10 and 12 ga. for waterfowl

Steel shot----protective cup required
Hevi-shot----- protective cup required

Nice-shot

Keep your shots close and hit them hard!


RwBeV

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2011, 10:18:48 AM »
I hunt ducks and geese with a verity of ML shot guns in my Navy Arms 12 bore I can use Steel and on occasion I do.  I use a SAM 1 wad from Reloader Specialty's that I tape up and use as a powder measure, I use equal amounts of powder and steel shot.  The SAM 1 wads seam to be a bit more flexable and pattern better out of my gun.  My gun is jug choked so its real easy to load.  I use the 2 3/4 wad for ducks and the 3" wad for geese but hang on to your hat when you use the 3" load it will get your attention when you shoot it, the wad holds about 3 3/4 drams of powder.  I still have a supply of Bismuth for now but when I run out I will probably go with ITX in my guns that wont take a plastic wad, I have friends that are having real good luck with it.

Bob

northmn

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2011, 06:47:32 PM »
At this time ITX is almost affordable at $129 per 7 pounds.  Nice shot is at $180 per 6.6 pounds and bismuth at $180 for 6.6 pounds.  All before postage.  Steel is still affordable and works at close range.  I ahve found #2 steel to be pretty effective on most of the bigger birds like mallards and pheasant with #3 also effective.  For smaller stuff like wood ducks and grouse (I often jump grouse while jump shooting wood ducks) I have found 5 to effective.  If you load even up. steel and powder you will get some pretty hefty loads as 1oz of steel is roughly 1 3/8 oz lead by measure.  About 100 grains?

DP

camerl2009

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2011, 08:40:02 PM »
well i dont know i i should use steel with fixed chokes

so i guess im not hunting duck any time soon

RwBeV

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2011, 09:02:44 PM »
What kind of gun are you shooting camerl2009?

Offline axelp

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2011, 09:07:23 PM »
Make sure you ask Ballistic Products about chokes before you try ITX shot in a choked gun. I have heard that it is not recommended for full choke guns. But I don't know for sure. I have used it in my cylinder bore fowler and found it works good, but I have heard that ITX does produce more pressures...

Ken
Galations 2:20

BrownBear

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2011, 10:52:31 PM »
It's been interesting reading about using steel shot in muzzleloaders.  I haven't tried it, not for emotional or historic reasons, but due to velocity concerns.  In my experiences with modern guns, steel shot performance is directly linked to velocity.  I don't use loads developing less than 1450 or 1500 fps even after increasing shot size because lower velocities simply don't kill as well.  And the great loss of velocity I experience with black powder in shotguns is problematic- actually a deal breaker.

camerl2009

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2011, 01:01:01 AM »
What kind of gun are you shooting camerl2009?

double barrel fliter

camerl2009

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2011, 01:07:17 AM »
and from what i under stand the ontario gov only let steel or bismuth for hunting waterfowl

and on the count that bismuth is radioactive im not tuching it with a 10ft pole

Daryl

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2011, 01:17:18 AM »
and from what i under stand the ontario gov only let steel or bismuth for hunting waterfowl

and on the count that bismuth is radioactive im not tuching it with a 10ft pole

If it's radio-active, how can it be classified as Non-Toxic?  First time I've heard that claim.

BrownBear

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2011, 01:26:42 AM »
News to me too, and I've been using it and following it since it first came available.  Can you point me to a source of info?

RwBeV

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2011, 01:30:02 AM »
Radio Active????  That's not one I have heard about!!??  Thousands of people use consume it every day it is the primary ingredient in the antacid Pepto Bismal.  I suppose that it could be radio active to some existent there are lots of things that are, Colman lantern mantles are.  I have shot lots of ducks geese and pheasants with Bismuth and apart from my eyes glowing in the dark I haven't had any ill effects.

Opps some how I turned on the underline Oh well
Bob

camerl2009

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2011, 01:45:11 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismuth#Characteristics

i dont care im still not going any where near it


camerl2009

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2011, 01:47:49 AM »
and from what i under stand the ontario gov only let steel or bismuth for hunting waterfowl

and on the count that bismuth is radioactive im not tuching it with a 10ft pole

If it's radio-active, how can it be classified as Non-Toxic?  First time I've heard that claim.

thats the gov

BrownBear

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2011, 02:04:02 AM »
From Wikipedia:

Isotopes
Main article: Isotopes of bismuth

The only naturally occurring isotope of bismuth, bismuth-209, was traditionally regarded as the element with the heaviest stable isotope, but it had long been suspected to be unstable on theoretical grounds. This was finally demonstrated in 2003 when researchers at the Institut d'Astrophysique Spatiale in Orsay, France, measured the alpha emission half-life of 209Bi to be 1.9 × 1019 years,[7] over a billion times longer than the current estimated age of the universe. Owing to its extraordinarily long half-life, for all presently known medical and industrial applications bismuth can be treated as if it is stable and non-radioactive. The radioactivity is of academic interest, however, because bismuth is one of few elements whose radioactivity was suspected, and indeed theoretically predicted, before being detected in the laboratory. Bismuth has the longest known alpha decay half life, although tellurium-128 has a double beta decay half-life of over 2.2×1024 years.

Several isotopes of bismuth with short half-lives occur within the radioactive disintegration chains of actinium, radium, and thorium, and more have been synthesized experimentally.


That's good enough for me.  I checked with a geologist, and he said I'd get more radiation driving down the street past a doctor's office than I'll get from handling bismuth shot or eating birds shot with it.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 02:06:10 AM by BrownBear »

camerl2009

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2011, 02:25:56 AM »
well the price is not for me so i guess i'll have to stick to pheasant, dove, turkey

Offline axelp

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2011, 03:55:06 AM »
ITX non-toxic shot is officially approved by Canada, USFWS, Arizona DGF, and California DFG...


K
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 03:57:35 AM by Ken Prather »
Galations 2:20

camerl2009

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2011, 04:04:03 AM »
ITX non-toxic shot is officially approved by Canada, USFWS, Arizona DGF, and California DFG...


K

it may be what part of canada becuse the ontario 2010-2011 reg's say sttel no bigger the bbb and bismuth no bigger then bb

RwBeV

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2011, 10:06:46 AM »
ITX is not the shot size its not even steel, its a Tungsten/Iron pellet with a belt around it.  It comes in #6,4,2,BB and 00 buck.  I see now they offer it for ML-ing rifles for states that have outlawed lead.

Bob

Offline axelp

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2011, 04:37:33 PM »
yep ITX is not steel. It is softer-- and in shot sizes, it can be crushed with pliers. (I have more #4 and #6 being sent to me as we speak.) I have hunted and shot with it in my muzzleloader during last years turkey and squirrel season... and although I have not killed a turkey with it yet (I have not gotten a shot to try---), The marketing director for Tombob Outdoors has killed turkey with ITX out of a muzzleloader, and there is a whole book of loading/ballistic data for ITX for modern shotguns. ITX has taken geese, and turkey and all kinds of critters. The maker of ITX is no stranger to ammo development. He is one of the ground floor developers for modern frangible ammo, as well as non-lead shot, and now lead-free roundball.

Actually I am a part of their Prostaff --I use both ITX shot and roundball. ITX is definately not a lead clone. It has advantages, and disadvantages compared to lead.... But it will work when lead is not allowed.

Ken Prather
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 06:41:28 PM by Ken Prather »
Galations 2:20

BrownBear

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2011, 05:35:30 PM »
Hey Ken,

I'm a likely buyer later this spring, for load development and use this fall for waterfowl alongside bismuth.  Can you direct me to any links on using it and results?  It sounds to me like a very good product.

Thanks.

Offline axelp

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Re: safe non toxic shot
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2011, 06:30:45 PM »
I would encourage you to contact the maker of ITX, TomBob Outdoors, and also talk to Ballistic Products, which is the company that does ballistic testing and also sells ITX.

I think ITX might be available at Track of the Wolf sometime in the near future...

The man to connect with at TomBob is Brad Clinton. Tell him I sent ya, and I am sure he will do his best to help answer any questions you may have. Ballistic Products has published a modern shotgun loading manual exclusively about ITX shot and they should be able to help you with any technical ballistic questions.

You can always email me or call me and I will share my experiences with ITX... I am not an expert--just an average muzzleloader enthusiast and hunter, but I will be glad to share what I have learned. And I would be very interested in hearing about your experiences after you try ITX. There are so many variables and yes, concerns, the more people try it out, the more we will all learn...

Ken Prather
Oakhurst, CA
559-641-7989

Brad Clinton, TomBob Outdoors LLC  
(814) 772-9274
Ridgway, PA

www.tomboboutdoors.com
www.ballisticproducts.com

« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 06:47:07 PM by Ken Prather »
Galations 2:20