Author Topic: barrels  (Read 11890 times)

jeager58

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barrels
« on: February 16, 2011, 09:32:51 PM »
on tows site some of their kits have colerain barrels and an upgrade to a rice match grade barrel   what is the difference in the barrels   tks ....phil

Offline tallbear

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Re: barrels
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2011, 12:41:00 AM »
Phil
Colerains from time to time have some quality control issues. Sometimes they are on the outside(not a problem),sometimes on the inside(a problem).I've not heard any of these issues with a Rice barrel.That being said there are a lot of people who use Colerains and swear by them.You have to decide if the extra money is worth it to you.

Mitch
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 12:41:28 AM by aka tallbear »

Offline smshea

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Re: barrels
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2011, 12:51:50 AM »
The outside finish on a Colerain is not even close to that of a Rice. Not sure why that is ....but it just is. Having said that, I use a lot of them and have never had any interior quality issues, not saying you couldn't get a bad one but my experience has been good . They seem to shoot great, You just have to do some draw filing to make them pretty...assuming you want them pretty ;).

Offline Don Getz

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Re: barrels
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2011, 02:27:39 AM »
Both Rice and Colerain have a finish that is a result of being made by a planer, which leaves longitudinal lines in the steel, that is, unless it is draw filed.   I believe Rice offers a draw filed barrel, but am not sure if all of them are done that way.
As for the "match grade" designation........sales gimmick.    Kind of like the old Green River plum center barrels..........Don

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: barrels
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2011, 03:08:31 AM »
Quote
As for the "match grade" designation........sales gimmick.    Kind of like the old Green River plum center barrels..........Don

Don, are you saying that to crow about one barrel over another is just a sales pitch? ;D

Now, you know I got you over a barrel this time.....

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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: barrels
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2011, 04:23:54 AM »
Rice barrels also have a carbide button pulled through the barrel that is just a little larger than the bore (top of lands) diameter. I forget how much larger maybe a thousandth or so. The purpose of this is to "iron out" the top of the lands to a consistent size. I am not sure how much it helps be I have never had a Rice barrel that didn't shoot far better than I could hold. Of course that same thing applies to most of the other barrels I have owned!
Dennis

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jeager58

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Re: barrels
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2011, 06:45:02 AM »
thanks for the info ...phil

Birddog6

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Re: barrels
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2011, 12:46:39 PM »
You put those two barrels side by side & there is a Obvious appearance difference, inside & outside.  The Rice barrel is superior in all ways & the Rice barrel will have a Perfect fit on the breechplug, the Colerain barrel breechplug fit you have a 50/50 chance of it being fitted.
Basically the Colerain will take more work to get it ready to use & thus you pay less for it.

I have used allot of both of them. I feel either barrel will shoot more accurately than most can hold them.

Keith Lisle

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: barrels
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2011, 04:12:18 PM »
I have used all of them with good results.

As Dennis experiences, I couldn't tell the difference, as I shoot offhand. If it's a good shot, man can I shoot. If it's a bad shot, well, it must be the barrel.

I need to get some coffee in me.

Tom
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: barrels
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2011, 04:55:18 PM »
Dennis..........If you can ream a barrel well, or get a good finish, you don't need that carbide ball pulled thru the barrel.
If that carbide  ball is pulled thru after the barrel is rifled, where does the metal go?  Wouldn't it achieve the same result
as burnishing a scraper, or raise a burr on each side?           Don

Online rich pierce

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Re: barrels
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2011, 04:58:12 PM »
No doubt modern makers are spoiled by the jewel-like quality of some of today's barrels.  It's a wonder that 1700's gunsmiths were able to face the day, looking at a rack of rough ground barrels, or worse yet, having to shape and finish a forged barrel that was roughly octagon.   ::)
Andover, Vermont

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: barrels
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2011, 05:12:33 PM »
This appears to be original finish, probably ground on a big water driven grind wheel. Drawfile the sides and the top three flats, and you're good to go. I would think a smith form the 18th C would have been really happy to get ground barrels like this as opposed to rough forged barrels.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 05:12:53 PM by Tom-Tom »
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: barrels
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2011, 05:14:53 PM »
Quote
If that carbide  ball is pulled thru after the barrel is rifled, where does the metal go?
Don,
It's like squeezing a pimple.  The metal squirts out the front of the bore.
Dave Kanger

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Daryl

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Re: barrels
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2011, 06:38:20 PM »
Quote
If that carbide  ball is pulled thru after the barrel is rifled, where does the metal go?
Don,
It's like squeezing a pimple.  The metal squirts out the front of the bore.


I agree - out the front - IF the grooves are being done at the sme time as well.

What about the metal pushed over the edges of the lands?  Or does the button run down to the bottom of the grooves?  Does this leave a 'flash' of metal on the sides of the grooves - doesn't look like it?  I realize it isn't much metal being moved - but have wondered just as Don - where does it go - into the land itself?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: barrels
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2011, 06:58:00 PM »
No doubt modern makers are spoiled by the jewel-like quality of some of today's barrels.  It's a wonder that 1700's gunsmiths were able to face the day, looking at a rack of rough ground barrels, or worse yet, having to shape and finish a forged barrel that was roughly octagon.   ::)
Ain't that thr truth! That Doglock breech loader I bought a while back measures 1 1/4" one way across the breech and 1 3/8" another way. Didn't seem to matter much back in the day.......
 The breech plug isn't "properly fitted" by today's standards either. :o
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: barrels
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2011, 07:25:57 PM »
No doubt modern makers are spoiled by the jewel-like quality of some of today's barrels.  It's a wonder that 1700's gunsmiths were able to face the day, looking at a rack of rough ground barrels, or worse yet, having to shape and finish a forged barrel that was roughly octagon.   ::)

They had apprentices  ;D

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: barrels
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2011, 07:50:04 PM »
Pulling a button through a barrel is my last choice in making a good barrel. Massive stress on the steel. Enough to split a 1 1/4" blank if it has a flaw etc.
Only doing the lands reduces the stress somewhat I suppose.
So if not annealed afterward there will be significant residual stresses in the steel.
Barrels that are completely button rifled have enough stress to cause serious changes in bore dimension unless they were heat treated between being "rifled" and profiled. The stess is so high that it is possible to feel the button pass if a hand is placed on the 1 1/4" blank when being buttoned in 40 or 45 caliber. Machining a taper on such a barrel without annealing (stress relief) first WILL result in a REVERSE taper in the bore. Making a 1/2 ocatgonal barrel from such a blank is much worse with a "step" at the round/octagonal transition. This is not a guess it happens EVERY TIME. It requires a controlled atmosphere oven to anneal barrels.
If the bore (top of the lands) is so rough that buttoning is done to "correct" it then someone needs to refine their reaming process.

As I may have stated before many of the highly regarded barrels used in ML would be used for tent pegs by breechloader shooters (some "modern" barrels are bad too).
Things like pulling a reamer through a bore after its reamed (for example) is classic and results in scratches on the lands. Show up like a diamond in a goats butt if bore scoped. Poor shop practice. But ML makers don't seen to care.
But fortunately for some ML barrel makers ML shooters/builders don't do much bore scoping.

Dan
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northmn

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Re: barrels
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2011, 08:05:28 PM »
At one time I used to shoot Numrich barrels against Douglas barrels and won a few matches, but not because of the barrel.  We had a person show up at a Grand Forks shoot where ther were a lot of competitors.  he won the aggregate and really shined at 100 yards off hand with an out of the box TC Hawken.  He shot a 48 on a regulation target.   He also was said to have been shooting every night.  One of the best shots I knew used up about 25 pounds of powder or so a year.  I used to shoot up far more powder than I do now and I used to shoot better.  Unless you are building a chunk gun or bench gun I doubt if you would ever know any difference in barrels between any fo the makers.  Even then, you better know how to load them as developing the load is where on gets the fine accuracy.  If one wants a better polished outside finish that is understandable but performance will not be obvious.

DP

billd

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Re: barrels
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2011, 05:28:12 PM »
Pulling a carbide button thru the bore is a form of burnishing.  We do it every day on hydraulic cylinders.  Much cheaper than grinding and it also imparts a slight hardness and wear resistance to the surface.   Your not pushing metal anywhere, just filling the scratches the reamer left.


Quoted from a machinists web site:
"Burnishing is a process by which a smooth hard tool (using sufficient pressure) is rubbed on the metal surface. This process flattens the high spots by causing plastic flow of the metal.  Burnishing improves the surface finish, surface hardness, wear-resistance, fatigue and corrosion resistance. "



« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 05:29:12 PM by Bill D »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: barrels
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2011, 11:18:35 PM »
Pulling a carbide button thru the bore is a form of burnishing.  We do it every day on hydraulic cylinders.  Much cheaper than grinding and it also imparts a slight hardness and wear resistance to the surface.   Your not pushing metal anywhere, just filling the scratches the reamer left.


Quoted from a machinists web site:
"Burnishing is a process by which a smooth hard tool (using sufficient pressure) is rubbed on the metal surface. This process flattens the high spots by causing plastic flow of the metal.  Burnishing improves the surface finish, surface hardness, wear-resistance, fatigue and corrosion resistance. "





The effect on the part is entirely dependent on the material used, what its to be used for and how much undersize the hole is compared the the button.
I might add that gun barrels are not hydraulic cylinders and the purpose they are put to is radically different. Residual stress in a hydraulic cylinder is not going to effect how accurately it shoots. While burnishing will not impart the stress that a full blow button rifling job will its not the best way to smooth a barrel since it will impart stress to the part..

Buttoning a gun barrel does not remove reamer scratches or even fill them in completely.
I have lapped a big name button rifled barrel that was so screwed up on the inside that pulling a lap through the barrel would cause it to "ring" as it ran over the "ironed down" reamer marks.
The ONLY reason to button rifle a rifle barrel or burnish with a button is COST and SPEED of production, quality is a secondary consideration. Button rifling a barrel takes SECONDS. Yes button rifled barrels can be very accurate. But they will not consistently shoot as well barrel to barrel as a cut rifled barrel will and they are more prone to leading when shooting cast bullets even though the barrel has been "ironed" smooth by the button. There are other issues involved such as pushing or pulling the button, driving it with gears or letting it drive itself to set the twist. Then there are factors like torque on the rod as its pushed or pulled or twisted.
Drilling and reaming are the time consuming part. This can be bypassed by hammer forging barrels from a donut of steel. Still will not produce as consistent a barrel as cut rifling. But its cheaper since no deep hole drill or reaming is needed and when people see "forged" they mistakenly think it means higher quality. Its just a cheap way to may a run of the mill rifle barrel. Of course there are stresses imparted here as well and these need to be eliminated in a rifle barrel.

Dan
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billd

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Re: barrels
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2011, 11:30:03 PM »
How did this thread turn into a discussdion about button rifling?

Bill

Offline Dphariss

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Re: barrels
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2011, 11:37:05 PM »
How did this thread turn into a discussdion about button rifling?

Bill

Someone was talking about barrels that are buttoned to burnish the lands.
I think its a BS process and was fool enough to indicate this.
Then someone decided the hydraulic cylinders and gun barrels were connected in some way.

Dan
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billd

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Re: barrels
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2011, 11:56:31 PM »
Someone has to explain burnishing to people who think it pushes metal out the other end like bursting a pimple.   

Hydraulic cylinder vs gun barrels,  end result is for a different purpose but the manufacturing process is very similar.  Same material, we use 12L14, 1215, 4140 and 8620, deep hole drill it, (we only go to 24")  bore it or ream it to a tolerance of +/- .0002 of finished size per side, burnish it to a 12 rms finish or better and hold a tolerance of +/- .0005 over the length of the bore.  We then air or electronic gauge 100% before shipping.  We do cylinders from .5" to 2."  One end is threaded for the cap housing  but we don't have to machine a octagon on the OD.

Bill

jeager58

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Re: barrels
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2011, 12:33:15 AM »
to sum up,   rice barrels have a superior finish on the outside, if I get a colrain barrel I should have an apprentice to draw file the outside, rice has a carbide button pulled thru it, some say good others not. a hydraulic cylinder is not a barrel, but on the other hand they are built to close tolerances.  wow a lot of info

omark

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Re: barrels
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2011, 08:45:39 PM »
to sum up,   rice barrels have a superior finish on the outside, if I get a colrain barrel I should have an apprentice to draw file the outside, rice has a carbide button pulled thru it, some say good others not. a hydraulic cylinder is not a barrel, but on the other hand they are built to close tolerances.  wow a lot of info
draw filing a barrel isnt that bad. just do it. i can tell from here you need the experience.   ;D   mark