Author Topic: sandblasting for metal?  (Read 15531 times)

Offline bgf

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sandblasting for metal?
« on: February 18, 2011, 02:50:44 AM »
I know many people like to polish metal to a mirror like shine, but I'm personally more attracted to the matte or satin finish I see on a lot of old rifles (esp. barrels) without the pitting of the cold blue/chlorox treatment.  Has anyone used sand or other media blasting to finish (or as a step in finishing) parts, and what does the result look like?  I believe the appearance of the original barrels is a product of the material used (wrought iron), but I'm thinking there may be a way to get that visual texture on modern steel.  I don't think I'm talking about aging either, as it isn't the color or pitting that I'm after.  Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated, and you can call me crazy if you want :).

FRJ

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2011, 02:56:40 AM »
Hi bfg, I have an old model 94 Winchester that someone let rust preety bad that I going to bead blast and then brown.The guns a great shooter but looks like $#@* and I was so happy with my GPR that I just browned that I going to do it on this rifle.It might be too smooth and even for a muzzleloader though. I don't think I would use it on one. Frank

Offline hortonstn

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2011, 03:04:36 AM »
i have sandblasted heavy bench rifle barrels and a few of my off hand guns, i like the matte finish it also makes browning a lot easier
paul

keweenaw

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2011, 05:14:54 PM »
A good slow rust blue on a 320-400 grit hand polish will give a wonder satin finish.  Personally I've not be polishing at all after carefully draw filing.  I think a bead blasted matte finish would look awfully modern.

Tom

Offline Don Getz

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2011, 05:24:05 PM »
I don't think I would bead blast a longrifle barrel, as Tom said, will look too modern.   Draw file it, then rub the bejesus
out of it with scotch brite.    As much as I tout the virtues of Scotch Brite, you would think I had stock in the company.   I
just like the stuff.   Even when I polish a lock, that is using the term loosely, I finish with scotchbrite.    It tends to give it
a "semi-gloss" finish, not real shiny.....try it..............Don

Birddog6

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2011, 05:27:01 PM »
I bead blast everything I brown. Opens the pores of the metal so it browns even & easily. Barrels, trim, etc., I bead blast all of it with glass beads.  I have done it on the last ? 40 rifles I guess.......  works for me

Keith Lisle
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 05:28:35 PM by Birddog6 »

Offline Dave B

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2011, 05:48:27 PM »
I had a barrel that I was having difficulty browning evenly. It was always blotchy as I carded it. I sand blasted it out of frustration and it gave me the best brown job I could have wished for up to that time. I have since learned that my degreasing was not adequate enough.  I think as long as you get a good degreaser on your parts you will never have a problem. I kind of like the mat finish of the bead blasted metal. Of course I also like driving a camouflage car.....this of course was along time ago. I dont have the "Duck blind" any more but it shure was a fun car.
Dave Blaisdell

Birddog6

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2011, 06:19:02 PM »
That is exactly why I started glass beading all of them. I had one that would not brown evenly. Spent hours & hours on the dang thing. Finally put it in the blast cabinet & blasted the H out of it, I was just soooooooo ticked off over it. Browned it again & it did Perfect......

Now, don't know if I had grease or inletting black trapped in pores or what it was, cause I had cleaned the bejesus out of it. But glass beading fixed the issue & have done all of them that way since.

Keith Lisle

Offline Dphariss

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2011, 06:40:33 PM »
Sand/bead blasting makes for a very poor finish durability wise unless done with beads at very low pressure.  Still it has no place on an American rifle before the 1980s or so.
If you don't like shiny don't polish so high. Stop at 220.

Dan
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Rasch Chronicles

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2011, 07:49:25 PM »
Fellows,

Many years ago a made the prosthetic implants for hip, knee, elbow, and a few other body parts.

The three common medias used were:
Bead blasting work hardens and smoothes the surface. Looks like water worn rock under moderate magnification.
Sand blasting abrades it. Looks like fine to medioum sandpaper under magnification.
Grit blasting actually pits and leaves sharp shards erupted fromthe surface. Looks like jagged mountain scapes. Cells bind and grow into it better.

I would venture to guess that a sandblasted surface would have substantialy more surface area to rust, thereby giving a quicker rust as opposed to a highly polished one. Now I wonder how bead blasting, glass or steel, would affect the rate and depth of rusting... Does a work hardended surface rust any faster or slower than a plain sanded on? I just don't know. You would definately have less sharp edges to catch the rust, but it would still be more than a well polished surface. Hmmm...

Interesting to consider.

Albert


Offline bgf

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2011, 10:20:25 PM »
Thanks, everyone, for the answers so far; you've given me lots to consider, which is what I was hoping for.  It is not just the shine that I am hoping to avoid, but the texture of the polished surface, which is to a degree independent of the grit used to polish -- I have never gone beyond 320, anyway.  Of the non-blasting options, I'll try the green pads first -- can't believe how well they work on bores, or perhaps simply leaving it as-filed with a fine-cut file.  Depending on those results, I will probably try bead- or sand-blasting next -- I realize it isn't a period correct technique, but then the steel I'm using isn't a period correct material, either :)

Thanks again for the help, and if anyone else has ideas, I will gladly consider them.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2011, 11:35:00 PM »
Thanks, everyone, for the answers so far; you've given me lots to consider, which is what I was hoping for.  It is not just the shine that I am hoping to avoid, but the texture of the polished surface, which is to a degree independent of the grit used to polish -- I have never gone beyond 320, anyway.  Of the non-blasting options, I'll try the green pads first -- can't believe how well they work on bores, or perhaps simply leaving it as-filed with a fine-cut file.  Depending on those results, I will probably try bead- or sand-blasting next -- I realize it isn't a period correct technique, but then the steel I'm using isn't a period correct material, either :)

Thanks again for the help, and if anyone else has ideas, I will gladly consider them.

The reason you see bead blast finishes on modern guns is because it if far, far cheaper than polish and will cover a host of surface preparation problems that polishing tends to make MORE visible.
The finish has no place on a long rifle. But its America and people can do what they want.

Dan
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Offline bgf

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2011, 12:17:54 AM »
Dan,
I always respect your opinion and welcome it -- I don't have to worry about you mincing around.  The reason I am considering a non-HC technique is because the HC technique in combination with non-HC materials does not appear to me always to give the intended result.  The texture of steel can be quite different from iron, at least to my eye.  Do you disagree and think that polished steel closely resembles the iron as finished on many originals?  This is not intended to be a sarcastic question -- I could perhaps be completely wrong in my assessment.  I am not entirely sure at this point even if blasting is the effect I want, thus the question.

Offline Metalshaper

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2011, 01:52:20 AM »
BGF,

 not being one to go with the crowd.. here is an underhammer I did. The barrel, the brass box frame, and the guard were all  blasted/etched, Just because  ;)  the iron parts blued with brownells, Oxho blue..



and to give another example of the rust blue mentioned above, here is the latest UH..  rust blued parts and heat blued frame..



Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

Offline bgf

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2011, 06:48:56 AM »
Jonathon,
Thanks.  That top barrel is getting close to the texture I had in mind.  What media, grit, etc., did you use on it?

38_Cal

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2011, 09:49:29 AM »
Have to stir the pot.  Most of my Schuetzen and Martini rifles that I've built have had hot caustic blue over a wire brushed surface...polish to 320 grit and use a 12" wheel with .012" wire at 1740 rpm.  Nope, it's not 18th or even 19th century, but I still have folks see it and complement me on the rust blued finish... ;D 

David

Offline DutchGramps

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2011, 11:40:53 AM »
....
The three common medias used were:
Bead blasting work hardens and smoothes the surface. Looks like water worn rock under moderate magnification.
Sand blasting abrades it. Looks like fine to medioum sandpaper under magnification.
Grit blasting actually pits and leaves sharp shards erupted fromthe surface. Looks like jagged mountain scapes. Cells bind and grow into it better.
....

What about sodium bicarbonate as a medium? With crushed walnut shell it is the softest you can imagine, great to degrease metal without really attacking it.
Real bikes are kick-started....

Offline Metalshaper

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2011, 05:31:57 PM »
Jonathon,
Thanks.  That top barrel is getting close to the texture I had in mind.  What media, grit, etc., did you use on it?


BG,

 Fine silica sand.. the stuff that looks even finer than a bag of regular sugar. don't remember what psi my bud's compressor was at?? but I made sure to hold the gun as far off the pieces as I could. ( especially  for the brass! ) 

Just make sure you wear a respirator or have a heck of a dust control system!! that silica dust can cause havoc with your lungs!!!

Hope it helps ya !

Respect Always
metalshaper/Jonathan

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2011, 06:41:25 PM »
Investing three hours into the prep can save you a week’s worth of rusting and ten hours of process work but it doesn’t come without the caveat that two seconds of inattention can cost many man hours to correct.

Speaking as a dealer who handles coated & loose abrasives and surface finishing materials … there are more than a dozen commonly used medias that come in hundreds of different varieties.  There’s another dozen or so less common media types as well, each coming in several varieties designed for application-specific performance.  One cannot not make a broad-based statement about “blasting” since there’s 9 common methods and another 6 less common methods that all fall under the generic term of “blasting” … and I won’t even get into the other dozen-plus varieties of surface preparation utilizing loose media that also fall under the generic term of “blasting”.  Thus, one should not make assumptions based on some Bubba with a Harbor-Freight blast cabinet and a few bags of “play sand” from Ace Hardware.

The matt finish you see on modern guns may not necessarily be “blasted” in the typical Bubba & Harbor-Freight blast cabinet sense.  Those who think the matt finish as seen on some modern guns is any less time consuming than hot bluing or doesn’t require proper preparation of the work, obviously have no understanding of or experience in producing such a finish.  A quick visual inspection will quickly reveal the process/media type/quality difference between those guns being produced to a “price” and those being produced to a “quality level”.

To answer the OP’s question: yes it is not only possible but very much feasible to prepare/finish a surface utilizing loose media.  The methods and materials will vary greatly depending on the application particulars and the exact type of finish that is desired.  As for the concern over whether or not utilizing such methods and materials is acceptable … they are no more unacceptable than using non-woven abrasives (Scotch Brite), steel wool, coated abrasives (sand paper), power tools, electric lights, FedEx…  Just consider that use of modern power engraving tools and microscopes is fully acceptable too…not to mention the fact that loose abrasives, pastes and slurries were utilized many centuries prior to the advent of the long rifle, adding the pneumatic component to the mix is no different than adding electric power, a drill press or GraverMax.  When it comes to the final appearance, I’ll guarantee you that if one was to put five guns done using historical methods of brown or rust blue next to five identical guns done in brown or rust blue that utilized loose media preparation, darn few would be able to correctly guess the method used.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 06:55:54 PM by FL-Flinter »
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Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2011, 03:28:16 AM »
This doesn't pertain to sandblasting, but an easy way to achieve the matt look I think you're after, is to cold blue, then rub back to the desired color.  Draw file, sand with 220, cold blue, then rub with fine steel wool or scoth-brite pad.  A little WD-40 will make the process go faster.

     Ed
Ed Wenger

Offline Dphariss

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2011, 05:46:55 AM »
Dan,
I always respect your opinion and welcome it -- I don't have to worry about you mincing around.  The reason I am considering a non-HC technique is because the HC technique in combination with non-HC materials does not appear to me always to give the intended result.  The texture of steel can be quite different from iron, at least to my eye.  Do you disagree and think that polished steel closely resembles the iron as finished on many originals?  This is not intended to be a sarcastic question -- I could perhaps be completely wrong in my assessment.  I am not entirely sure at this point even if blasting is the effect I want, thus the question.

Maybe you are confusing finishing process with material.

320 finish. Rust blue. 1137 alloy. Lock plate is hot rolled mild steel 600 grit further polished with 0000 steel wool and chrome polish. The entry pipe is 600 grit then heat blued. Note the difference in it and the lock.



This may be a steel barrel, given its period of manufacture. What the other parts are? Probably sheet iron. Later production S Hawken. Stock still has original stock finish in places metal finish appears to be all gone. But I have not examined it except through glass.
I can't tell which would be which.


Having polished iron receivers and steel ones I can assure you 600 grit on steel looks just like 600 grit on iron.

600 grit on iron receiver,  320 grit on modern steel barrel rust blue. Remote chance receiver and lockplate are steel but its still 1870s period.



Here is 600 grit on a modern cast lock.


A proper polish and a FINISH that gives the effect you want is what you are after.
Bead blast is a waste of time and will produce a low quality short lived finish. I have owned a number of guns with beaded and caustic blued barrels. Finish will start to show white pretty quick if used much. The "points" of the mat finish wear off too fast.

All the casehardening shown is by Keith Kilby now at Wyoming Armory.

Dan
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Offline bgf

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2011, 07:18:46 AM »
Jonathon,
Yes that helps, thanks.

Fl-Flinter,
Thanks.  If I can't get the result I want with a simpler manual technique, I'm all for trying some type of media blasting, assuming I can sort out all the variables.

Ed,
That is something I can try, thanks.

Dan,
I'm going to look at rust blue in particular -- I've seen that pistol before and like the barrel.  Maybe I can mix and match some techniques to get it (down :) ) to my standards; possibly 220 or even 180 would do what I want.  Also, I  am almost certain the escutcheon, for example, in the second picture is iron.  Not counting the dings, that is the visual texture I'm aiming for.

Thanks, everyone -- I really appreciate the feedback and guidance in my thought processes.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2011, 09:14:04 AM »
Just remember that its hard to recreate something done by simple methods by making it more complex.
The original Hawken is all iron/steel mounted. I was trying to point out that the barrel, the escutcheon, entry pipe and nose cap have near identical surface finishes even though the barrel is likely "cast steel" and the other parts surely iron. But I did not get it properly worded.
Dan
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Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2011, 06:00:14 PM »
Bead blast is a waste of time and will produce a low quality short lived finish. I have owned a number of guns with beaded and caustic blued barrels. Finish will start to show white pretty quick if used much. The "points" of the mat finish wear off too fast.
Dan

What media and grit size was used?
- "Beads" come in four types of glass;  seven types of ceramic; six different iron base alloys; two aluminum alloys; and more than a dozen synthetics/composites.  All these different media options exist because there is no "one-size-fits-all" for use in all applications.  Simply stating the generic term "bead" means nothing without specifics.

What process was used?
- To go along with the multitude of medias, there are many different process options such as: pneumatic, hydraulic, mechanical and aggitation to just the four most common methods.  As with the different types of media, so too do the different processes produce different results.  Again, use of the generic term "blasting" means noting without identifying the specific process being utilized.

Suppose you took your car to the shop to get "painted" and the only term used in the contract was "paint" ... would you be a bit miffed if you assumed the generic term "paint" implied two-part epoxy primer with base-coat color and clear-coat finish but the autobody shop considerd the generic term "paint" to mean latex house and trim?  All those products absolutely fall under the generic term "paint" yet they are vasty different in composition and made for completely different applications.  The same goes for using the generic term "bead blasting" which includes everything from Bubba with his Harbor-Freight cabinet and a bag of play sand to a completely automated hydromechanical system.  Ingorance is not bliss.

Take the challenge ... correctly identify the preparation process used before these four pieces were rust blued





How about I make the challenge a little easier with these four pieces ...



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Offline Dphariss

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Re: sandblasting for metal?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2011, 09:29:04 PM »
Bead blast is a waste of time and will produce a low quality short lived finish. I have owned a number of guns with beaded and caustic blued barrels. Finish will start to show white pretty quick if used much. The "points" of the mat finish wear off too fast.
Dan

What media and grit size was used?
- "Beads" come in four types of glass;  seven types of ceramic; six different iron base alloys; two aluminum alloys; and more than a dozen synthetics/composites.  All these different media options exist because there is no "one-size-fits-all" for use in all applications.  Simply stating the generic term "bead" means nothing without specifics.

What process was used?
- To go along with the multitude of medias, there are many different process options such as: pneumatic, hydraulic, mechanical and aggitation to just the four most common methods.  As with the different types of media, so too do the different processes produce different results.  Again, use of the generic term "blasting" means noting without identifying the specific process being utilized.

Suppose you took your car to the shop to get "painted" and the only term used in the contract was "paint" ... would you be a bit miffed if you assumed the generic term "paint" implied two-part epoxy primer with base-coat color and clear-coat finish but the autobody shop considerd the generic term "paint" to mean latex house and trim?  All those products absolutely fall under the generic term "paint" yet they are vasty different in composition and made for completely different applications.  The same goes for using the generic term "bead blasting" which includes everything from Bubba with his Harbor-Freight cabinet and a bag of play sand to a completely automated hydromechanical system.  Ingorance is not bliss.

Take the challenge ... correctly identify the preparation process used before these four pieces were rust blued





How about I make the challenge a little easier with these four pieces ...





You sound like a salesman for air compressors and bead blast cabinets.
Pray please tell me what does the composition of automotive coatings and how they are applied have to do with a Kentucky long rifles?
Yes you can blast in all sorts of grits and compositions. With enough experimentation its possible to recreate a surface finish that can be done with nothing more than a polishing medium and a block of wood or piece of leather. But it likely will look different anyway. Using modern mass production technology is usually pretty silly if making 1 or 3 or 10 guns a year. Sure its possible do "French Grey" of sorts on case hardening with wet beading in small sizes and low pressure. It can be done on engraving but I think its a BS thing to do to a high end engraving job. But I have seen it done routinely.

But its still silly to bead blast a Kentucky long rifle trying to get the original finish.
It requires more equipment but  in a high production scenario it REDUCES LABOR COST. Its like button rifling barrels. It has nothing to do with quality its about profit margins. One can put a bead blast finish on a part in seconds that will cover up machining/sanding marks that would take at least an hour of hand polished and the average gun buyer looks at the cheap, fast wearing mat finish on gun like a Ruger #1 "Craig Boddington" and goes gaga "a matt finish" OOOOO!! "Craig Boddington". Super cool! Kaching, oh sorry, beep, beep, boop goes the cash register. Of course the guy hardly uses it so he never notices the rapid wear rate of the matt finish.
Cheap to apply, people will buy it and maybe even pay extra, whats not to like? Kaching! (beep, beep, boop). Put some more parts in the blast and turn some barely trained worker loose and viola parts ready to blue. Take the money to the bank. Ever use a "satin nickle" Colt 1911 much? Like having it in a holster all the time in motion and finding it develops bright, shiny spots from holster wear? Looks wonderful, until its in use for a year or two. Bead blast blue as applied by every maker will do the same thing only faster.
If the part is polished to 220 or 320 and RUST blued it will take on a soft semi-mat finish from the natural etch anyway so why would anyone want to have it bead blasted to get a matt finish? The matt can be controlled by the process if the operator knows how. All thats needed is a place to hang a the barrel to rust and a tank to boil it in. A propane camp stove will serve for heat if nothing else is available. All this can he hung on the wall of a small shop when not in use. How much room does the blast cabinet and the beads and the hose and the compressor take up? Can it be stored in the back yard under a tarp if the shop is small?

No room for all this? Lets send it out to someone to have it bead blasted so it can be screwed up and require rework. OR have the guy buy every conceivable grit, have them try them all with various pressures to get the finish desired on scraps, then do the parts in question, hang the cost we have an unlimited budget right?
Or the poor slob could buy a blast cabinet himself and a bunch of media, a regulator for the air, maybe a wet system. Play with this for a week and find out the finish you want is not really obtainable since the technology was not used on the original guns. But hey! Hey! its cool and high tech and cost enough to buy parts for a couple of more guns so its just gotta be, better, new and improved etc etc. ::)
The question was trying to recreate the finish on old guns. Old guns are not bead blasted and the original finish can be recreated by simply using the simple, low cost, low tech processes of the past as indicated by the photos in my post above.
Want it softly matted and white? Finish, degrease and dose with Naval Jelly.
Or maybe soak it in Coca Cola or vinegar.
 ::)
Dan
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