Cleaning can be dangerous

[Kermit]

...or so it says here. Ever hear of this? Comments from a chemist?

http://sdcml.homestead.com/warn.html

[SCLoyalist]

I remember something along this line a few years back.   Part of the argument was that during WW2,  hydrogen peroxide was used as a rocket fuel because it was so volatile.  The counterargument was that the rocket fuel usage was 100 pct pure hydrogen peroxide, whereas what you buy in the drugstore and mix with alcohol and Murphy's Oil soap is a rather dilute 3 pct solution.

I notice that the page with the warning (sdcml.homestead.com/warn..etc) cites Muzzleloader Magazine as it's source, but doesn't mention what month's or year's issue.  And, if you click on the hot link ostensibly for Muzzleloader Magazine on the SSDCML page, you go to a website (Muzzmag, not muzzleloadermag)  that has links to Harry Potter stuff.              

All in all, doesn't seem too credible.   SCL

[Wyoming Mike]

I have a degree in Chemistry and was a working chemist for about ten years.  So much for bone fides.

Peroxides are oxidizers.  They will readily react to anything they can oxidize and generate heat.  The higher molecular weight peroxides can be explosive under the right conditions.

The conditions for making the black powder solvent from the peroxide formula are not explosive.  The 3% solution you get in the drug store is not enough to set off anything.  Alcohol and oil are organics and the peroxide will react with them.  You can feel this reaction when you mix it up.  The bottle you mix it in will warm up a few degrees from this reaction but that is about all.

I never have figured out why the peroxide is used in the cleaning solvent.  Perhaps it breaks down the oil and makes it better for cleaning.  No matter what it does there is no peroxide left after a minute or so.

It sounds like someone is trying to start another urban legend.

[Daryl]

I went to the site you mention and got the San Diego ML site - clicked on a few links all worked properly.  sdcml.homestead.com  I didn't see any warnings - must have missed that one.

[Levy]

In our conservation lab, we've used hydrogen peroxide to remove the stains from burned ceramics and it does bleach them out.  I wonder if the guns aren't really getting as clean as the patches may indicate because the of this bleaching affect on the fouling residue?

James Levy

[Daryl]

Seems to me it's "peroxide" that Aila uses to finish bleach the moose skulls in hunting camp. It only takes a couple days.  I suspect it's the stronger 28% solution - available here - I had some for some reason years ago, and discarded it in an ant hill. I would not put that stuff in my bore.

[SCLoyalist]

I went to the site you mention and got the San Diego ML site - clicked on a few links all worked properly.  sdcml.homestead.com  I didn't see any warnings - must have missed that one.

Daryl,  what URL do you get if you click on the Purple MUZZLELOADER link on SDCML's homestead site?    I get sent to MUZZMAG.com, which definitely AIN'T Muzzleloader magazine's site or a page pertaining to bore cleaning.   I have no interest in Emma Watson pics, but if you're getting vectored to a webpage that does pertain to the subject of bore cleaning solutions, I'd be interested in reading what it says.

SCL

[Daryl]

I clicked on Kermit's url jsut now and this is what I got.

According to  Muzzleloader magazine, it is possible for the 3 solution cleaner consisting of 1/3 alcohol, 1/3 hydrogen peroxide, & 1/3 water-soluble oil to explode.
"Hydrogen Peroxide is considered to be an explosive. The concentration is quite low, (6%), & safe when not mixed with other things. But, over time, & in the presence of a fast burning, low flashpoint fuel (alcohol), it can pose a significant threat."
The issue contains a 1st hand account of an actual explosion, & should be required reading for anyone using &/or considering using the 3 solution cleaning fluid. Apparently the individual in question kept the solution stored in a sealed glass bottle, which exploded, with predictable results. Remember, safety first!
SDCML
SDCML Home Event Calendar Links Black Powder Basics
 
 

[JCKelly]

Rust is oxidation.

Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer - that's why it bleaches organic stuff. It is also one of the stages used to bleach woodpulp in paper making.

Salt helps steel rust.

All soap, including Mr. Murphy's, contains salt. Makes the soap flow better. Just like in your garden if you shake some salt on a slug - well, he kinda flows.

Could one of the chemists here explain to me why one should clean a steel barrel with a dilute solution of salt + an oxidizer + whatever oil?

[SCLoyalist]

I clicked on Kermit's url jsut now and this is what I got.

According to  Muzzleloader magazine, it is possible for the 3 solution cleaner consisting of 1/3 alcohol, 1/3 hydrogen peroxide, & 1/3 water-soluble oil to explode.
"Hydrogen Peroxide is considered to be an explosive. The concentration is quite low, (6%), & safe when not mixed with other things. .....

Okay, I got that far.   It's just that on that page the word MUZZLELOADER there in big underlined purple letters is clickable - and that's what I thought was taking folks to a more in-depth article on the subject instead of the trash page that comes up for me.

Thanks, SCL

[Dphariss]

Rust is oxidation.

Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer - that's why it bleaches organic stuff. It is also one of the stages used to bleach woodpulp in paper making.

Salt helps steel rust.

All soap, including Mr. Murphy's, contains salt. Makes the soap flow better. Just like in your garden if you shake some salt on a slug - well, he kinda flows.

Could one of the chemists here explain to me why one should clean a steel barrel with a dilute solution of salt + an oxidizer + whatever oil?

Heh heh!
Be careful you might result in some sacred cow getting gored....
As I am sure you know people have been "inventing" crack pot BP cleaning solutions for years.
Been guilty of this as well.
I used to use Windex with vinegar and water 1:3 ratio in BPCRs. Worked wonderfully for BP fouling I used it to remove any bullet lube that might be hanging around the end of the chamber etc. Then they changed the formula and the new "green" version will now turn steel brown as soon as it contacts fouling. Have not the slightest idea what they did to the stuff. Used gallons of it and never had a problem though I was initially worried over the vinegar.
Then I could only get the "environmentally friendly" stuff. Super nasty at the normal dilution.
I have reverted to water. I guess I could buy some "Black Solve" but its kinda weird and soapy too.

Dan

[Daryl]

Tried black solve - Birchwood Casey's isn't it? Bought it in about 1978, I think - maybe 77. I know I had it in Smithers - so 78 and 79 at least. Not sure where I bought it from - said to dilute it with water, good for BP solivent, lubing patchs, rust preventor & hunting lube - THOSE two things I didn't believe.  Worked for target shooting - as good as spit, IIRC- more expensive, though, couldn't make myself use it as a hunting lube, regardless of what it said on the white plastic bottle.