Is browning authentic?

[FRJ]

I am confused, I was always under the impression that browning was the finish used on Hawkens in the 1830's on Hawken rifles, now I'm reading that they were blued, left bright and also browned. Is there a definitave answer to which finish I should use to be correct for a new Hawken of that period? Thanks, Frank

[keweenaw]

I think you are confusing two different things.  One is what type of finish was used on arms 1770-1800, which could be bright, blued or browned depending on the maker and time period.  The question of what finish was used on 1830's Hawken rifles is an entirely different question that someone should be able to answer definitively.

Tom

[Dphariss]

I am confused, I was always under the impression that browning was the finish used on Hawkens in the 1830's on Hawken rifles, now I'm reading that they were blued, left bright and also browned. Is there a definitave answer to which finish I should use to be correct for a new Hawken of that period? Thanks, Frank

I would rust blue or brown. I like rust blue but not sure in all that HC
The Hawken brothers were trained in 18th century shop practices. What they were doing in 1830? Probably the same things they were trained in. While the FASHION may have changed the ways to finish metal did not and this is the key. But I think the trade rifles of the time had browned barrels, generally, as did Chiefs grade trade guns IIRC. Browning is durable and requires little equipment to accomplish. Only heat blue is easier and I think this is how trade gun barrels were blued, rust blue while not difficult requires boiling water and charcoal blue also requires more equipment.
But bright guns were not considered a good idea on the prairie where a reflection could literally be seen for 20 miles.


I have a somewhat over polished steel patchbox on a rifle that is amazingly reflective, reflecting the sun like a spotlight. But its not likely that an American rifle of the 18th or 19th century would have this level of polish. But its plenty bright enough to get the bearer killed in 1830.
So I doubt a lot of western rifles were bright.
Hawken barrels were brown or blue just like earlier arms often were. I would not charcoal blue a barrel since it coats the bore as well and I dislike this.
Hardware locks etc would be blue, charcoal probably or casehardened in colors.


Dan


 

[Daryl]

Taylor did a bit of research and is going to colour case harden all the metal of his latest, .62 cal. Hawken - except the barrel which he rust blued just as he did LB's.   

[Chuck Burrows]

According to Don Stith, Phil Sanders, the guys at the old GRRW, and a few others I have talked with over the years who have taken original Hawkens apart, the barrels were blued, most likely rust blued  (a technique that goes back at least to the late 1700's), breeches and locks were case hardened albeit seldom color cased but rather a more "French Gray" color, as was the rest of the iron hardware - on full-stocks this includes: the buttplate, trigger guards, rod thimbles, etc. On halfstocks the rod thimbles were blued along with the barrels.
Just a note - while we tend to think of the fittings as iron, they were in the 1830 period were usually listed as steel fittings not iron even though they were cased iron - most likely due to the fact that they were case hardened

[Mtn Meek]

Is it possible to case harden a two piece butt plate that has been brazed together?

[Chuck Burrows]

High heat brass brazing is usually done at around 1650° F and pack case hardening can be done at as low as 1425° F although it is usually done at some what over 1500° F with a high of 1625° - the higher the heat the faster the depth of hardening

1 hour   @ 1425 to 1450°F results in a case .004" deep.
2 hours @ 1425 to 1450°F results in a case .006" deep.
3 hours @ 1425 to 1450°F results in a case .009" deep.
4 hours @ 1425 to 1450°F results in a case .011" deep.

1 hour   @ 1600 to 1625°F results in a case .015" deep.
2 hours @ 1600 to 1625°F results in a case .021" deep.
3 hours @ 1600 to 1625°F results in a case .026" deep.
4 hours @ 1600 to 1625°F results in a case .030" deep.

Heat Treaters Guide, 1982, ASM, p.25 chart (referenceing Metals Handbook 8th ed., Vol 2, ASM.

[38_Cal]

My 1841 US Mississippi rifle (dated 1850) has the remains of the smooth, lacquer covered, brown under the wood line on the barrel.  The exterior is pretty rough, but the original finish is quite nice.

David

[Ben I. Voss]

For what it's worth, my uncle had an original "paper cartridge" sharps carbine that was in pretty good shape - it had patches of the original fine grained brown finish also protected by some type of varnish.

[Daryl]

High heat brass brazing is usually done at around 1650° F and pack case hardening can be done at as low as 1425° F although it is usually done at some what over 1500° F with a high of 1625° - the higher the heat the faster the depth of hardening

1 hour   @ 1425 to 1450°F results in a case .004" deep.
2 hours @ 1425 to 1450°F results in a case .006" deep.
3 hours @ 1425 to 1450°F results in a case .009" deep.
4 hours @ 1425 to 1450°F results in a case .011" deep.

1 hour   @ 1600 to 1625°F results in a case .015" deep.
2 hours @ 1600 to 1625°F results in a case .021" deep.
3 hours @ 1600 to 1625°F results in a case .026" deep.
4 hours @ 1600 to 1625°F results in a case .030" deep.

Heat Treaters Guide, 1982, ASM, p.25 chart (referenceing Metals Handbook 8th ed., Vol 2, ASM.

Amazing list of numbers - I didn't realize it such time was involved.

[Dphariss]

Is it possible to case harden a two piece butt plate that has been brazed together?

With proper care yes. Assuming BRASS brazing.
I have seen a color case hardened breech block from a Freund tipping breechblock modification Sharps. The parts added to the breech block to make the modification were all brazed to the breechlock.

Dan