Shallow pans

[Bioprof]

I just got through installing a White Lightnin vent liner in the .36 caliber rifle that I'm building.   I used a Late Ketland lock with it.  I ended up getting the touch hole right where I wanted it in the sunset position.  After I put the lock back on, it seems that even in the sunset position, the touch hole is still pretty close to the bottom of the pan.   I think it is just because the pan is so shallow.   Has anyone run into a problem with such a shallow pan?

It looks like it should be a super fast lock.  The mainspring seems a lot stronger than the ones on most of my other locks.

[B Shipman]

You don't need all that much primng, but you certainly can deepen the pan a bit.

[jerrywh]

I like shallow pans. I don;t think it will slow the ignition down as long as the hole isn't buried.

[rich pierce]

Recent high speed photos show the sparks dive down into the powder and it's not just surface powder that ignites.  Timing tests showed that powder up against the touch hole gave faster ignition.  All against conventional wisdom.

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Everyone of the above replies is correct in my view! But here is something neat I found on some original European arms; the pan was slightly deeper outbound than against the barrel. A little research showed some makers in Liege Belgium thought this would help with water in the pan (for what thats worth). Its not that much, just enough to notice. I just thought that was neat. I tried it on one of my flints and the result is cool. I also highly polish and then harden my pans so I can just wipe 'em clean. Not sure this outer end deepening of the pan is effective. Seems like the new Swiss powders do better when against the hole anyway, and thats all I ever use anymore. Originals were subject to a whole lot worse conditions in life than we are! As a matter of fact, I only use as much priming powder as it takes to make the charge go off. Usually just a smidge in the pan. Makes a whole lot less flash to dodge too!
Susie

[Dphariss]

I just got through installing a White Lightnin vent liner in the .36 caliber rifle that I'm building.   I used a Late Ketland lock with it.  I ended up getting the touch hole right where I wanted it in the sunset position.  After I put the lock back on, it seems that even in the sunset position, the touch hole is still pretty close to the bottom of the pan.   I think it is just because the pan is so shallow.   Has anyone run into a problem with such a shallow pan?

It looks like it should be a super fast lock.  The mainspring seems a lot stronger than the ones on most of my other locks.

I doubt you will have a problem.
How much powder you use fro prime may depend on what you use the rifle for. I never get flashes in the pan with a full pan of powder. I do with small amounts no matter WHO made the vent liner. I always look at the rifle as my ancestors would. Hunting etc. A flash in the pan on the range can actually be useful. A flash in the pan any other time is a major PITA and where I live could get you ate or at least well chewed.
I sold a rifle once that I had shot extensively, hunted with etc. Good reliable rifle. Bought from the guy I sold it too by a guy who believed in using just a little bitty amount of priming. Had lots of trouble and ended up butchering the vent in a rifle that did not have a problem. Flintlocks are fired by heat. More heat better ignition.

Dan

[peterw]

...it seems that even in the sunset position, the touch hole is still pretty close to the bottom of the pan.   

We say that sunset position is correct. But why? Isn't more important correct position of touch hole measured from the bottom of pan? In my Great Plains touch hole is 3mm (0.11") above bottom of the pan and it is in the sunset position. I have very quick ignition. In my Southern Rifle with Durs Egg lock I made  touch hole 3 mm above bottom of the pan BUT it is NOT in sunset position. It is 1mm (0.04") above "correct" sunset position. 

[Acer Saccharum]

Dear Anne Landers,

I'm not going to pretend what 'sunset position' means..........So exactly what does that mean?

I assume that if I drew a line across the flat top surface of the pan, the touch hole would be centered on this line.

But I have assumed things before, and gotten into a whole mess of trouble (ie:marital)....

So before I act on my assumptions, please straighten me out.


I like a touchhole to be just covered by the edge of the frizzen when the cover is closed. this doesn't work out when the frizzen has a little divot taken out of the underside. I think that divot is an imaginary ignition speeder-upper. As we know now, from Larry Pletcher's films, the powder doesn't really ignite until the frizzen is fully open.

Opinionated in NY

[Bioprof]

Dear Anne Landers,

I'm not going to pretend what 'sunset position' means..........So exactly what does that mean?

I assume that if I drew a line across the flat top surface of the pan, the touch hole would be centered on this line.

Acer,

That is what I meant by "the sunset position". 

[David Price]

Bioprof,

Go to Larry Pletchers web site.  There is all the information that you could possibly  want.  Larry gave us all a lesson on shooting flintlocks.

[Roger Fisher]

Dear Anne Landers,

I'm not going to pretend what 'sunset position' means..........So exactly what does that mean?

I assume that if I drew a line across the flat top surface of the pan, the touch hole would be centered on this line.

Well what the H____!     Remember Kilroy was here?  Cut his nose off and he'll look like the said position against the side flat and pan top line!  Sure there are positions and there are positions, nuff said!
Acer,

That is what I meant by "the sunset position". 

[Dphariss]

Dear Anne Landers,

I'm not going to pretend what 'sunset position' means..........So exactly what does that mean?

I assume that if I drew a line across the flat top surface of the pan, the touch hole would be centered on this line.

But I have assumed things before, and gotten into a whole mess of trouble (ie:marital)....

So before I act on my assumptions, please straighten me out.


I like a touchhole to be just covered by the edge of the frizzen when the cover is closed. this doesn't work out when the frizzen has a little divot taken out of the underside. I think that divot is an imaginary ignition speeder-upper. As we know now, from Larry Pletcher's films, the powder doesn't really ignite until the frizzen is fully open.

Opinionated in NY

The groove is likely for self priming or as a slight vent so that when loading easy air escape gets powder right right next to the pan. ()
The lock I made from Manton castings is set up to prevent powder being right next to the vent.

Dan

[T*O*F]

Confucius say,  "Man who use shallow pan own thirsty dog."

[Acer Saccharum]

Confucius say,  "Man who use shallow pan own thirsty dog."

Now you've done it, Dave. This thread is heading for the looney bin in a handcart.

At any shoot I've been to in the last fifty years, the rule is that you load with the frizzen OPEN and the hammer DOWN. Self priming is not allowed at any range because of the possibility of a gun going off should a safety notch slip for any reason.

This is the lock from the Jacob Kuntz rifle in the Metropolitan. Notice the sliding hammer safety and the hole on the back edge of the frizzen face. The sliding safety engages the hammer AND a pin slides forward locking the FRIZZEN at he same time. This lock could safely self-prime.

[Evil Monkey]

So before I act on my assumptions, please straighten me out.


Opinionated in NY

Dear Opinionated,
 I'm afraid that merely explainig the meaning of "the sunset position" won't even BEGIN to straighten you out. THAT would require an entire forum of it's own. It would be much easier to straighten out a slinky.


BTW, Confucius also say, "Fly that sits on toilet bowl get *#)*^~-off"

[Acer Saccharum]

I see why you call yourself "evil", mr Monkey. However, I do appreciate you trying to keep me on track. Apparently, I was deluding myself, thinking that once I understood what the "sunset position" was, my life would be all figured out.

In an effort to straighten me out, how about we hoist an Appleton Estate or two, while we're at the Dixon's Fair next year? Hmmm? I sure would love to see you and the odd couple come down. Keep us posted.

[Roger Fisher]

I have ground a pan wider for more area for the spark to land upon other than that deeper is good if that vent is a tad low!  Only my shallow thought regards the shallow pan.

I'm wandering thought wise!

Previous poster mentioned hammer down and frizzen open when loading at shoots. That is on the mark and our clubs enforce and remind the shooters of that requirement. 

My smoothy loses 2 f outta her vent again (another white lightning darn soon) she would self prime if loaded with said hammer UP and frizzen closed not a good thing!   This puts the light on that rule!

[Acer Saccharum]

I agree with Roger when he says a wider pan is a bigger target for the sparks. Why then, did the late English flintlock develop a narrow, deep pan? Is it because the sparks could be more accurately directed into the prime?

[Acer Saccharum]

Roger, some folks plug the vent with a feather or toothpick. You might need a stick at this point. You are losing considerable pressure, too, which will affect accuracy. At your age, I think you know all that.

[Evil Monkey]

You are losing considerable pressure, too, which will affect accuracy. At your age, I think you know all that.

  Are you suggesting that people Rogers age lose considerable pressure?? Don't want to know WHERE that pressure is expelled from but am a bit curious how it would affect accuracy.....or did you mean that it affects accuracy for other shooters that are nearby???

[Acer Saccharum]

Bad,   bad,    bad,      Evil Monkey!

[keweenaw]

The idea of loading with an open pan is the safe idea but not the traditional idea, at least in english shooting.  When all those bloody redcoats and hessians were over here minding our business, loading was done from cartridges where the pan was primed first, then the load dumped down the barrel.  Some Manton and early Purdey locks  had gravitational safeties on them to block the cock from falling when the piece was pointed up for loading, a feature necessitated by the practice of priming first.  As for those narrow, V pans on late Manton locks, the purpose of the bar down the bottom of that narrow pan is to prevent the prime from being dumped out when the frizzen starts forward during an overhead shot.

Tom

[Acer Saccharum]

Snyder, does the bar down the middle of the frizzen cover also shape the prime, making a v-shaped pile, giving more surface area?  Maybe the rapid opening of the frizzen would toss a little of the prime in the air, making a more volatile situation?

Fun to think about.


I also thank you for the 'gravitational safety' .... I never heard of that before.

[Bioprof]

You are losing considerable pressure, too, which will affect accuracy. At your age, I think you know all that.

  Are you suggesting that people Rogers age lose considerable pressure?? Don't want to know WHERE that pressure is expelled from but am a bit curious how it would affect accuracy.....or did you mean that it affects accuracy for other shooters that are nearby???

I appreciate the thoughtful answers and the deliberations, but you guys really crack me up!    

[Roger Fisher]

You are losing considerable pressure, too, which will affect accuracy. At your age, I think you know all that.

  Are you suggesting that people Rogers age lose considerable pressure?? Don't want to know WHERE that pressure is expelled from but am a bit curious how it would affect accuracy.....or did you mean that it affects accuracy for other shooters that are nearby???

I appreciate the thoughtful answers and the deliberations, but you guys really crack me up!    

Sure they are picking on the elderly again   I will add that when I lose enough 2 f outta that vent that she starts shooting low I will then change the liner (again)!!
So far she is on the mark!  Pondering on the matter a bit maybe I'll simply add 5 or so grains of 2 f to my charge for 'awhile'.  Or shove a pick in dat hole!  As far as getting the shooters on my lock side excited or singed, my lock is guarded with a flash guard.  That is only manners on the 'line'!!   I don't want to be called ill-mannered on top of everything else