powder position in pan

[jim m]

another post got me to thinking. I know that's dangerous.  touchole position is important and latest photo studies show powder next to hole is fastest. here is the delima, when you carry your rifle and tilt it the powder moves in the pan, so how do you keep it next to the touch hole. if you fill the pan enough so the powder doesn't move then the hole is covered and things slow way down. so many problems and so Little time to solve them

[Roger Fisher]

We have line shoots, woodswalks etc where topnotch ignition can and should be strived for then again we have hunting while trying to sneak to a clear shot on game in that case we shouldn't worry about where the prime is piled or scattered in the pan but have a care that she ignites the charge and does her job.  That milisecond difference is not an item then!

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it

[George F.]

Tap the side plate with you palm once or twice, not a pounding tap, and not a  light tap either, and the powder will move towards the touch hole.   ...Geo.

[David Price]

Jim m

Next time you are at the range try piling the powder up against the touch hole and fire several shots.  Then try piling the powder away from the touch hole and fire several shots.  If you can tell the difference you are a better man than I am.  Larry Pletcher proved that piling the powder against the hole is faster, but for all practical purposes I don't think it is detectable.  Follow through  with your sight picture and don't worry about it when hunting.  You only need a seven when hunting not an X.

David Price

[long carabine]

 I was always taught to slap the lock lightly after you prime her. I would assume that the slap puts the powder where its suppossed to be. I had a 45 cal that would not fire with a pan full and my 54 cal will only fire with the pan 3/4 full. makes a lot of smoke but the gun goes off. Dang rifles are like a woman.......picky! Tim

[Candle Snuffer]

Larry P. did do some mighty fine testing of ignition and powder in pan placement.

I don't think you have any thing to worry about whether your prime is next to the touch hole, or in the middle of the pan or further away from the touch hole.  The lag time is so small that I doubt it's detectable.

[Larry Pletcher]

I just got back from Conner Prairie and thought I better get in on this  discussion.  The initial motivation for this last batch of experiments was to look into high vs low vent locations.  The location of the prime in the pan took off when I wanted to eliminate variables.  Close to the vent is indeed faster, around 15% in one set of trials.  However, as a number of you suggest something measurable in a lab isn't necessarily noticable with human senses.  (My first conclusion was that human eyes and ears are terrible tools to use in this instance.)

Another issue is that in my tests I took much greater effort to place prime than a shooter in the field would use.  In my tests perhaps 2/3 of the pan would be empty in order to measure each portion of the pan.  I could get away with this because the prime would be ignited by a red hot wire.    Obviously a shooter needs powder under the sparks - that changes everything.

My biggest surprises in this set of trials were that:
Banking the prime away is slowest.
High/low vent position makes less difference that we thought - practically no diff.
Actually covering the vent does not slow ignition.  (Filling the flash channel on a non-liner vent hole might be slower; I did not measure that.)

Here is a link to the intro of the testing:
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/pan-vent-experiments.php

Parts 2&3 demonstrate that the closer the fire is the more intense.  Part 2 looks at burn marks, while Part 3 looks at fire through the muzzle.

Part 4 deals with the amount of prime.  In my L&R pan 3/4 grain was faster than 1 grain.

Part 5 deals with prime location.

Part 6 deals with high/low vent location.

Thank you for comments.
Regards,
Pletch

[jim m]

thanks much Larry for your input. greatly appreciated and your site and test are fantastic. my point on this thread was that for most of us in the field, we just prime the pan and go hunting. I've had no real problems except on humid days with 4f getting muddy in the pan but 3f takes care of that. it's been interesting and thanks for the replies.

[Darkhorse]

My feeling after working through a few recalcitrant flinters, including a couple of my own and several owned by friends, is this: If you get inconsistant ignition or the fuse effect then something about your touch hole, liner is not right.
When you get it right you'll know it. The rifle goes off like a firecracker and never again will your hear and feel the dreaded fuse effect.
This to me includes where the powder happens to be in the pan at the time. Sometimes it's as little as increasing the vent hole one (1) number size.

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

my point on this thread was that for most of us in the field, we just prime the pan and go hunting. I've had no real problems except on humid days with 4f getting muddy in the pan but 3f takes care of that. it's been interesting and thanks for the replies.

Exactly! I hunt with a .40 flint here in Arkansas. I have learned that humidity is a killer and I wanted to expand on something here for those who don't know. Leave your rifle somewhere similar in temperature to what you will be in the day you hunt. Load fresh just before you head out and don't prime until you have to. If you walk outside into cold conditions from a warm house (and smaller calibers are worse; large calibers aren't as finicky) the barrel will sweat internally and cause a powder shell. It has happened to myself and others at the range. Swiss 3fg is wonderful and I load & prime with it hunting. I also carry a small length of pipe cleaner for the touch hole and my touch hole is the largest size I can go without losing velocity and back pressure. About .070 and the hole is coned to the pan. I don't worry about covering up the hole anymore like I used to. Larrys findings made me relax and play to find out it really doesn't make any difference. I've never been one to completely fill the pan either. Less flinch! But if its wet out, I won't prime until I see the game. Sometimes I lose! But I'm getting faster! Building a .47 Lehigh right now that maybe won't be quite so finicky!
Susie

[R. Hare]

What you say is in theory correct, Roundball, yet for some reason it hasn't worked that way up here. (Alberta)
I don't like to leave my gun outside, so I dump out the priming before I get to the porch, and when indoors I push some paper towel into the pan and half-close the steel on it.
When it's fairly cold, say -25  to -35C, the gun sometimes turns all furry with frost, but I stand it in the corner on its nose on some more paper towel, and there it sits 'till dry again.

Done this sometimes for a couple of weeks, yet its still gone off no bother.
This might be in part because here it might get cold, but it's still a dry atmosphere.

Susie,

Hello from up north! ...been a while since we talked!

Richard.

[R. Hare]

Hi Roundball,

What I was meaning, is that the condensation needn't wet the charge or be a worry, so long as pan is filled with something absorbant, and gun is stood upside down.... not suggesting condensation doesn't happen.

Sorry for the confusion.

All the best,

Richard.

[William Worth]

Powder position in the pan is sort of like trying to see the refrigerator light go off when you close the door in my opinion.

I just put it in and on the ocassions that I looked again it was pretty much level.