LMF between coats

[Dan Herda]

I am finishing a kit gun and have used LMF stain,sealer and finish. as I get to the finishing part, it says to use 0000 steel wool (between coats)to smooth and aid in adheasion. is there any reason why I couldnt used 320 or 400 wet/dry with water to do the same thing?

[chuck-ia]

Just my unprofessional oppinion, but I would think it would take too much of the finish off and leave sanding marks. chuck

[Captchee]

 dan
 you need to wet sand . not dry sand  if you use the wet dry .

[Dan Herda]

Yes, I realise you need the water, thats why I said,"with water". My question was if I could get the same result using the paper instead of the steel wool,and thus eliminating the possiblity of tiny metal particals being embedded into the surface of the work.

[ramserl]

just finished a rifle with the same stuff used a Scotch bright pad and it worked better than steel wool  use the finish for the lube not water just worked better for me  good luck

[FRJ]

OK I give what is LMF? Frank

[Mad Monk]

I am finishing a kit gun and have used LMF stain,sealer and finish. as I get to the finishing part, it says to use 0000 steel wool (between coats)to smooth and aid in adheasion. is there any reason why I couldnt used 320 or 400 wet/dry with water to do the same thing?

LMF is a polyurethane finish.  If you do not "rough up" the surface of a dry coat the next coat may not adhere as well as it should.  The second coat requires mechanical adhesion rather than a chemical bond as you would have with some other types of finish.
But if you make the surface of the dry (cured actually) coat too rough the next coat may look a bit odd.

When you have layers of finish perfectly flat mating surfaces give depth to the finish even in very this layers.  A rough layer "interface" may change the way the light is reflected back out of the layers of finish, scattering the light which changes the illusion of depth in the finish.

E. Ogre

[Dave Dolliver]

LMF  is Laurel Mountain Forge, or something like that.  They sell Browning solution, stock stain and finishing materials.  At least that's what it means to Me.

Dave Dolliver

[B Shipman]

All of the above is basically false. No malice intended. This varnish was first developed by John Bivins in the 70's using a paint chemist who was also a talented gunmaker at the time by the name of Rick Shreiber to develop the perfect finish for a gunstock. It is not a standard polyurethane all of which are unsuitable for stock finishes by and large. It has the characteristics of both a spar varnish and a polyurethane. It is called a modified polyurethane. Too expensive to be practial for general sale , but Schreiber was allowed to produce it in small quantities for his own sale which he does to this day, Bivins having gotten tired of the marketing pretty quickly.
I've used this stuff for over 30 yrs. and I don't think anyone will critisize my finishes for being sloppy. If anything to good. There is nothing in the universe that is better protection agianst weather and humidity by itself. Nothing. Zero.

Not only do you need not rough it up between coats, but if you apply the following coat before 24 hrs. it simply eats what you already did and you spin your gears. It sets by both air drying AND cross linking. Slowly in a cool humid environment, more quickly in dry heat.


Getting late, I'll weigh in tommorrow and tell you how best to do it. It's a trick.

[wmrike]

LMF is not a straight poly and performs as would a top grade oil.  I prefer a light touch of 0000 between coats, and adhesion is excellent - never a problem, now or later.  Outstanding water resistance.  I have also sprayed it on modern gunstocks, cut 50/50, with good results.

[rich pierce]

I've never had success cutting back intermediate coats regardless of the type of finish I am using in thin coats.   I have too heavy a hand I guess.  Just suggesting that it can be tricky, frustrating, even counter productive IF you are using light coats well rubbed in. I use pumice and oil or rottenstone and mineral oil when all is done to cut back shine.

[Hawken62_flint]

I had some Laurel Mountain Forge stock finish sitting on my bench for 3 or 4 years before I ventured to use it.  Once I did, I could not believe the result.  You can truly hand rub it into the stock till it is almost completely dry and it leaves a great satin finish.  I have always used 0000 between each coat and hand rubbed on the next coat.  You can wipe it down with a tack cloth after the steel wool or I generally just use a lint free cotton to wipe off any left over steel wool fibers.  I have refinished portions of 3 modern guns, repairing dents or scratches, using LMF stock finish and it has matched the factory finish so well that the owners couldn't tell where I started the new finish and where I stopped it.  The last one I did was a laminated stock on a Ruger 77-22.  The owner asked my secret and I told him I could tell him, but then I would have to shoot him.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

It should be said that  Laurel Mountain Forge finish is also known as Permalyn

http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/finish_instruction.html

[KLMoors]

Thanks Doc! I was just about to ask that question.

[bgf]

Does Permalyn work in a similar fashion to polyurethane?  After an endorsement from the B. Shipman, I'm tempted to try it.

With polyurethane (I know, I'm a bad man -- but I do some modern stuff also and I'm not fond of changing my ways), I can put multiple thin coats on within 24 hours and only use steel wool after that time (i.e., letting the piece cure overnight), then wipe down with mineral spirits, dry, and blow off with air before starting the next day of finishing. 

The steel wool between coats is only the lightest of touches.  I used to rub through using (highly) thinned polyurethane on the first coat, so I started waiting for a couple of coats (applied after the piece was dry to touch) before using steel wool on it, and eventually got to the point where I was comfortable doing up to 4 coats a day and only using the steel wool after it had set up overnight.  It sounds like a lot of work, but really it only takes five minutes to wipe a coat on and then ignore it for a while (keep it hanging in a nice warm, dry room).  6-8 thin coats is adequate for most things, and not thick and glassy, so I would expect the Permalyn might be even nicer.

[B Shipman]

Here's the secret. To seal the stock. The first coat seals it. After that everything else is minimal. Therefore get as much as you can into the wood in the first coat. Soak the stock with a soft brush back and forth. As it soaks in add more, be sloppy, until it begins to be tacky. I often get a third of a can in the wood on the first coat. Wipe it off.
Wait at least 24 hrs. 2 days better. Apply next coat smoothly with a piece of soft cloth like a square of old T-shirt. Don't rub. Apply smoothly without runners. Continue at 1 or 2 day intervals until everything is covered without anything stiil taking varnish. You cannot add to just one spot. Do it all until all is filled. Wait at least 2 days.
Then lightly wisk with 4-o steel wool or thick felt pad laced with pumice and oil. Lightly.
Then scrub evenly with a toothbush or something similar with rottenstone and mineral oil. No, don't put rottenstone on a rag.  You'll just get shiny and dull spots. Wipe it off. A little wax or even Pledge lightly applied and you're done.

Key. The finish takes about a week to reach maximum hardness at which time it's very hard to rub on. Ever try to rub out spar varnish. Can't do it. It's easy to work with after 2-3 days. Unlike polyurethanes, you can add to this moified polyurethane years later.  Bill

[David Price]

I agree with B Shipman 100 %.  I was introduced to Permalyn by John Bivins years ago and have been using it ever since.  The only thing that I can add to what Bill has said is that Permalyn comes in  a sealer and a finish.  The only differance is the viscosity , the sealer being the thinner of the two.  If there is no carving on the gun I would recommend two coats of sealer and then additional coats of the finish until you get the finish that you desire.  If there is carving on the gun just use the sealer for all coats.  The tip that J Bivins gave me was to hand rub the sealer until it was almost dry,  then scrub the carvng thoroughly with a tooth brush so that the finish does not fill in the definition of the carving.

If you go to my web site  www.davidpriceflintlocks.com you will see the results of what I have just recommended.

[Dphariss]

Anyone who thinks that Permalyn is anything but plastic has not read the MSDS on the stuff. There are several different formulas of Premalyn BTW, besides the one used in the "stock finish".
I am not sure which is the LMF stuff.
http://www.eastman.com/Brands/Permalyn/Pages/ProductList.aspx

I will surely get fried for this but Bivins  used this stuff because it was FAST and then tried to rewrite history, I am told, to make it "tradtional". How do you make a synthetic plastic varnish on a longrifle "traditional"? Its impossible unless people simply want to believe it.
If you go to someone who specializes in plastic finishes what would you expect but a plastic.
 
Remington went through this some years back with that thick plastic finish they were putting on guns. If you had one out in the cold and brought it into a heated building you could HEAR the finish BREAKING as the wood moved and the finish could not. It was not ELASTIC.
Better living though modern chemistry.
 

Dan

[Jim Kibler]

I dont' think anyone was suggesting Permalyn to be a historically correct finish.  Some have acheived good results with it in my opinion.  In my short time working with finishes, one thing that I've found is that there's seems to be none that are perfect.  And yes I've used traditional boiled and leaded linseed finishes.  No one finish seems to have it all. 

[Dan Herda]

Thank you all for the input.

[Dphariss]

I dont' think anyone was suggesting Permalyn to be a historically correct finish.  Some have acheived good results with it in my opinion.  In my short time working with finishes, one thing that I've found is that there's seems to be none that are perfect.  And yes I've used traditional boiled and leaded linseed finishes.  No one finish seems to have it all. 

Its a matter of definition in many cases.
If you mean a finish that will be totally waterproof and long lasting in outdoor and indoor use you are correct there is none.
You can have a hard "flexible" waterproof finish that is short term and will fail and allow water into the stock. Or you can have a softer finish elastic finish that is water resistant and long lived that will, with a very little renewal every couple of years even when in hard use will remain virtually the same.
Its impossible to have both SFAIK.

Dan

[Jim Kibler]

Here's the problem I have with finishes.  You can have a traditional linseed oil finish and the look is great, but if the finish is built up on the surface to any degree, durability is poor.  If the finish is tight to the wood and there is little build up, it will not be much of a problem , but many original rifles have more of a built up finish.  More modern finishes can be used to create a more durable built up finish, but the "look" is not the same as a linseed oil finish.  Seems you can have hard, water and wear resistance or the soft warmth of linseed oil.  It's always a battle between these extreems. 

[lowandslow]

I’d like to add some more comments to the discussion about Laurel Mountain Forge’s Permalyn finish. First of all a little history..I’m Rick Schreiber, the owner and founder of Laurel Mountain Forge. While I do monitor a number of gunsmithing web sites I normally don’t respond. This time I do need to set the record straight. First of all Permalyn was never developed at the request of John Bivins. It was developed by me a number of years before I ever had a chance to meet John. John had heard of me and had a chance to use some of our products. He was impressed enough with the quality, that he started using our stains, finishes and browning solution on most of the rifles he was producing.  Over the years we became friends and it was at this time that he decided he would like to try marketing our Permalyn Sealer and Permalyn Gunstock Finish under his own brand.  Laurel Mountain Forge supplied John Bivins’ company with Permalyn Finish and Sealer in bulk, as well as a custom Antique Wood Stain, which he then re-branded. John did quite well with the sales for some time, but for various reasons, John decided it was becoming too much for him to handle, so he then transferred the finish and stain business to Lowell Manley Shooting Supplies in Michigan.  Lowell continued to sell our rebranded products until he passed on.

There seems to be a lot of discussion about what is a traditional finish and what is not. My question is why does it matter? Are we using traditional barrel steels? I certainly hope not. What about the spring steel alloys. For those of shooting flintlocks what about tool steel frizzens as opposed to case hardening. Most of the antiques we see today do not have their original finish and certainly not the original color. What we enjoy looking at is the product of 200 years of waxing, refinishing and general wear and tear. I would hazard to guess that if any of us saw a rifle fresh out of an 18th century gunshop, we would not be too impressed with the finish or the color.

All that being said, Permalyn is certainly based on modern technology. When I developed it, I was striving for a finish that was durable, easy to apply and had the appearance of what I thought a good stock finish should look like. If it didn’t meet these goals, I would have developed something else.

There was a statement that Permalyn was a plastic finish. I am not sure what that means. Permaly is no more a plastic than cured linseed oil, or a spar varnish is. They all will dry hard and glossy and can not be re-dissolved when cured. Also Laurel Mountain Forge’s Permalyn does not have any of the Eastman chemical Permayn ester resins in its formulation. Similar names, but not similar products.

I’m off my soap box now….I hope I haven’t offended anyone.

Rick

[Bill of the 45th]

Very informative, Thank you Rick, and welcome to the Forum, please stay ad participate.

Bill

[Dan Herda]

Thank you Rick, for weighing in and adding this imfo.