Author Topic: LMF between coats  (Read 28230 times)

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: LMF between coats
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2011, 04:45:46 AM »
Rick,  I too appreciate your background information on LMF products.  I use them .  Thanks for the good work to bring them about.  

Can you add anything with regard to application techniques which you might think would be useful?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 04:48:20 AM by Jerry V Lape »

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: LMF between coats
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2011, 05:53:50 AM »
  Rick - I'd like to take a stab at answering your question of "why does it matter?"
From a gun maker's viewpoint, there are definite advantages and disadvantages to every type of stain and finish. Many of these shortcomings can be dealt with, some must just be accepted. I have used and will continue to use your excellent finish - more specifically the sealer - but only for certain projects where it's use has merit. Some guns are going to require something quite different. When building a gun, every aspect of the build needs to add to the desired final character of the piece, and for me not every gun wants the same finish. In this approach to building guns, the "project" is initially a blank canvas, and everything that goes into building it can be likened to a painter's palette.
   There certainly are gun builders who use materials and methods to build their guns that are close or identical to the original materials and methods - use of wrought iron in place of modern steels, case hardening low carbon frizzens, forging various springs from simple carbon steels etc. - and this is done to closely emulate the old work based on the best available research. If an entire gun is made using the "old" methods and materials, use of an unsuitable finish would be out of the question.
  No offense meant, but I am curious why you would think that if any of us saw a freshly made 18th century rifle we'd be less than impressed with the color and finish? There's a lot of us here who would trade our firstborn for that kind of opportunity. I'd say you are correct about the years of handling etc. contributing to the current appearance of most of our old originals, but a lot of us spend countless hours studying, experimenting and comparing notes with one another to try and bring it all back to life - or at the very least add more colors to the palette - and as a result we probably have a better than fair guess as to what a brand new one looked like.

Offline B Shipman

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Re: LMF between coats
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2011, 09:59:17 AM »
This is a great thread and what sets this site ahead of others. Rick, I havn't talked to you in many years but at least I was close.
Some years ago I did an experiment. I've used many finishes including original varnish formulas. Plain brown varnish (rosin and oil), copal resin, hard boiled oil (hard drying linseed oil),mastic and rosin, a mastic and rosin varnish with madder root ground in for an authentic Lehigh finish, plain linseed oil, raw oil. You just go through these periods when you try things.
Here's the test. I used all of these plus Tru-oil, the most touted finishes from Brownells. the most touted marine varnishes, polyurethans, amd Permalyn. Finish a block of maple with each. Throw them in a bucket of water for three days, then put them on the driveway for a day in the hot baking sun.
The marine varnish and a thick coat of copal cracked. The rest were a gummy mess. The only ones to survive unscathed were Permalyn and a well soaked but thin coat of copal.
Long ago, i've gotten sick and tired of hunters telling me they could'nt get their ramrods out of the rifle after a couple of days in the wet and snow. Iv'e refinised at least a dozen rifles by famous makers because the finish turned to $#@*.
 I agree with Ian entirely. Different rifles requier a different look. But a lot of this is dependent on how the finish is applied rather than what the finsh is. There's no way you can tell the difference  between a finish of hard boiled oil and permalyn if treated the same. Why suffer.




Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: LMF between coats
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2011, 03:35:47 PM »
 Suffering's great. It builds character and chicks dig it. 

Bill, I have not run any tests like you describe, but still I can definitely vouch for Permalyn's "weather proofing" qualities, have had guns finished with it out in all kinds of weather with impressive results. In most cases I use a method of application similar to yours - drown the stock inside and out with sealer, then follow up with thin applications of the same. But I still stand by my comments, sometimes it's not what you want, for me it all depends on the nature of the project.

Offline okieboy

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Re: LMF between coats
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2011, 05:10:16 PM »
 Thanks for participating Rick. I also have used LMF products with good effect.
 Although this topic is finishes, not stains; I want to ask what would be compatable with your stains to darken them? I know that you spoke to me on the phone a year or two ago about a black "toner" and I check your site for its availability from time to time. Until it is available, I have wondered about the use of anilines as a darkener.
 Thanks again for the information and your products.
Okieboy

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: LMF between coats
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2011, 05:34:42 PM »
Welcome to ALR Rick, I too use several of your LMF products and they are great. I am finishing up a fowler and bought a can of LMF Permalyn Sealer to use on it. Never tried it before but had heard great things about its weather resistance so I thought I would try it.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: LMF between coats
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2011, 06:00:54 PM »
Thanks for participating Rick. I also have used LMF products with good effect.
 Although this topic is finishes, not stains; I want to ask what would be compatable with your stains to darken them? I know that you spoke to me on the phone a year or two ago about a black "toner" and I check your site for its availability from time to time. Until it is available, I have wondered about the use of anilines as a darkener.
 Thanks again for the information and your products.

Are you trying to darken the stain with the addition of a black coloring matter or are you trying to darken the finish to duplicate what some call patina seen on original rifles?

E. Ogre

Offline okieboy

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Re: LMF between coats
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2011, 06:24:54 PM »
 I am not trying to create any patina. I am trying to to achieve the effect produced by first staining the wood ( and that color could vary across a wide spectum) then finishing with multiple coats of linseed oil darkened with lampblack. However I want to use the LMF sealer/finishes rather than linseed oil. This process can produce controlled degrees of darkness from slightly darkening a brown or red finish on through to a basically black finish. I like dark finishes, but they are not for everyone. One aspect of carrying part of the coloring in the finish ( as opposed to the stain that penetrates the wood) is that over time the "wear" areas of the stock will develop highlights.
Okieboy

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: LMF between coats
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2011, 06:36:33 PM »
I am not trying to create any patina. I am trying to to achieve the effect produced by first staining the wood ( and that color could vary across a wide spectum) then finishing with multiple coats of linseed oil darkened with lampblack. However I want to use the LMF sealer/finishes rather than linseed oil. This process can produce controlled degrees of darkness from slightly darkening a brown or red finish on through to a basically black finish. I like dark finishes, but they are not for everyone. One aspect of carrying part of the coloring in the finish ( as opposed to the stain that penetrates the wood) is that over time the "wear" areas of the stock will develop highlights.

It has been 25 years since I played with this stuff.

When I used organic dyes on curly maple I could not get the black curl with any of the brown dyes.  I added some bone black to the sealer for the first coat or two of sealer.  That gave me an effect similar to what I was seeing with the nitrate of iron stain.

I had looked at Lehigh County originals where the original varnish had been tinted but never looked into ways of duplicating them.

E. Ogre

Offline mountainman

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Re: LMF between coats
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2015, 11:33:02 PM »
Interesting read, my question was, if you handrub all the coats of finish on the stock, do you even have to sand between coats?