David Kennedy rifle from the Bear creek School NC

[copdoc]

A friend of mine has this.  He was going to sell it buy has changed his mind.  I thought you guys might like to see it.  Pics snapped in a hurry when i was tired.  Will get some better ones later.

Fred  fell free to move pics to the online museum.

Question for some of you guys.  The pattern on the patchbox is a holdover from the older Pennsylvania rifles.  It is referred to as the "star daisy" pattern on this forum and Bill Ivey's book but some of the old guys who have had these rifles call it an Edelweiss.  Comments, questions or even a few laughs welcome.....

Edelweiss pics do look similar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leontopodium_alpinum

David Kennedy 1768-1837

[Sequatchie Rifle]

That's a nice rifle.  Do you have any details- length, caliber, barrel dimensions, etc?

[mbriggs]

Copdoc,
Thank you for posting these photos.  Several of the early rifles in the Bear Creek School do have edelweiss style patchboxe finials like those found in the Valley of Virginia.  Bill Ivey's book does a good job of illustrating this.

Over the years, the Bear Creek School Makers did move more to the twisted star style patchox finial.  The Longrifle you posted is somewhere in between.

Michael

[Vinegarjarsports]

Gentlemen, thank you for posting the pictures of this rifle. David Kennedy was my great-great-great-great grandfather. I have yet to be privileged to hold one of the family made rifles, but cherish the pictures. His entire family, sons and  in laws, were active in the gun making business. I am aware of, and have pictures of four types of patch boxes used by the Bear Creek school, all with the similar "daisy" or "star" or "eidelweis" patch boxes. Copdoc, if your friend changes his mind about selling, I would love to be contacted. By the way, on January 20, 1812, David Kennedy wrote to his congressman, Archibald McBryde, offering on behalf of "myselfe and bruther and suns and company to manifacter any number of" ... "muskites or rifels" ... "in defence of the rights of our country". I understand that these rifles were used primarily by Andrew Jackson's troops, even at New Orleans. I will be glad to share my copy of that letter, a number of pictures of other rifles, and much other information that I have about Kennedy rifles with anyone who writes to me at PO Box 1133 Hartsville SC  29551. Chuck Luther

[copdoc]

Hi Bill
I will get measurements and post them.  I have a two friends who between them have quite a collection of NC longrifles and a couple of forum members offered theirs for measurement. I am in the process of measuring them, and in will attempt to classify the rifling characteristics and some of the tool mark characteristics.   I would like to write a book on them.  I think I can get measurements on approximately 60-70 NC rifles between them.  It was suggested by a gentleman on this forum to do an inexpensive book with black and white pictures but with length, barrel length and bore.  I will also include rifling specs if time permits and if I have the time and patience land and groove specs and twist.  I used to be a forensic firearms examiner so this is interesting to me.  If anyone thinks this is superfluous let me know and will just go with bore diameter.  I have seen a few that appear to have gain twist.

Michael
Thanks for the info on the star daisy edelweiss.  The ones I have heard refer to it as edelweiss have been the old guys who had GGGG grandpa's gun on the mantel, not collectors so this is interesting in that I was not sure if you serious collectors refereed to it it as such.  I'll look at some of them the variations and see if I can tell the difference.  I have a seen a wide variation in the design.  I'll also refer to Bill Ivey's excellent book.

Chuck
That is fascinating.  I'll call him tonight but guaranteed he will want a copy of the letter you have AND he will WANT you to hold it.  We are not that far away.  I would love to write that up for one of the magazines, you holding GGGG gandpa's rifle made for Andrew Jackson's troops.  WOW  I have a Foltz made by my GGGG Uncle and am still pretty excited when I hold it.  I understand.

I have several emails and PM from some of you interested in buying it and will advise him but I want him to keep it.  That way I can visit it from time to time.  I told him if he did sell it this is a good place.  He has a friend that is very interested in buying it but has not made him an offer.  I'm kind of hoping he does not get an offer unless it is my price range.

[wildcatter]

Great Rifle! I would hope that if the gun transfers owners, vinegarjarsports has a chance at it.  Holding something your GGGG grandfather  is a once in a life time opportunity.  Thanks for posting the pictures.  This is a great forum/website.

[copdoc]

and as much as we would all like to have it I am in agreement that if it does change hands it would be nice to stay in the family.  I do hope we can get with him and let him hold it.  I am sure I can borrow it for such an occasion.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

This one of the better streams posted of late on this forum- it incorporates so much of what "we", the company of collectors and students, seem to be about.  I, too, think it would be wonderful for the grandson to hold his ancestor's work.  Best of luck!

[Leonard]

My GGGG Grandfather was Alexander Kennedy.  I have pages of info. passed from my Grandfather, one titled ;       "Out Smarting The Yankees"   Gun locks were expensive and only a shop or two in the North had the knowledge to make them. A secret guarded carefully. Owing to the high costs of locks this N.C. David Kennedy  decided to go to New York ,horseback and see the factory. Arriving he found the factory to be locked & guarded. With shrewdness David Kennedy studied the situation. He hung around a few days and got on speaking terms with a few workmen.  He asked if anyone played the fiddle where upon one of them said he could and owned a fine violin. So, Kennedy was invited that night to this mans house for an evening of music.  After listening to a few selections he was asked if he could play violin. " A little" he admitted modestly. Taking the violin he played the same selections, but with mastery manner that he charmed the mans family. So, he was invited back the next night to have all the workman listen. . . The house was filled with men the next evening. He played again,and the workmen of the gun factory were so charmed with his skills that he was invited to the gun factory the next day. Once inside it didn't take long for David to learn all he wanted to know about their secret method of making gunlocks. Soon, he made his way back to N.C to his own factory on the banks of Bear Creek. Telling friends that he " fiddled his way in "  . . . . . . . That's the short version. I have enjoyed the photos you posted. We only had a couple photos in the family of a man holding a Kennedy Rifle. But wouldn't even let my Grandpa, Brice Kennedy  hold it . 

[copdoc]

Great Story Leonard
I'll pass the story to my friend with the rifle.
Sounds like your GGGGF was a very bright and resourceful man.

[Old Bob]

There is a D. Kennedy rifle altered by M.A. Baker in 1862 shown in "Confederate Longarms and Pistols" (Hill & Anthony). It has a patchbox identical to the one in this thread with the same number of piercings.

[copdoc]

Thanks Bob

I had not realized there was a Baker conversion of a Kennedy in the book.  Ed Antony was a great friend.  Most think of him as the machine gun guru but he knew a lot about all guns.  Wish I could talk to him one more time.  I could never remember more than 2% of the knowledge he tried to pass on.

[Old Bob]

I wasn't aware that he had died. I didn't know either of these gentlemen, but the book has some good info on some rare Confederate pieces although more detail would have been nice. I got it over 20 years ago as a Christmas present and I've used it many times as a reference. The photography, though lacking color, is very clear. Is Mr. Hill still with us?

[copdoc]

Ed passed away maybe 10-12 years ago.  Time flies.  He has an obituary in SAR.  He is well known for his knowledge of C3 but had extensive knowledge in many types of firearms.  A true gentleman and scholar.

I have thought the same thing about the book, rare guns, sharp pics, but I wish it was in color.  Ed said he did not do it to make money.  He wanted to preserve the history.  Color pics would have cost a lot more money.

He told me at the time most were collected there was not much interest outside a few collectors.  Most sold for 15 bucks or so and were not treated with any respect.  Just hanging in barns and attics rusting away.

I do not know Mr Hill.  I will try to find out about him. 

I really appreciate you pointing out the Kennedy/Baker in the book.  I did not remember it.

[Old Bob]

Thanks for the information. They did a very good job with that book. I have a first edition bound in leather and it has held up better than any others I have. Color is not necessary, in fact, black and white is generally sharper in detail anyway. Besides, we all know these old guns are basically brown and gray anyways. Just a nice touch when a particularly nice gun is photographed. I like their philosophy about preserving the history of these pieces. From what you say, I'd say you were fortunate in knowing Mr. Anthony. I guess I was kind of lucky in thinking about that rifle being in the book. I had been looking for a different gun recently and remembered seeing a Kennedy. Good luck with further research.

[copdoc]

Bob you are right about the B&W vs color, especially at the time B&W had much higher resolution.  You are right about being lucky to have known Mr Anthony. 

Forgot I was going to borrow it and get specs for Bill.  Too much work not enough play lately.

[Shreckmeister]

This one of the better streams posted of late on this forum- it incorporates so much of what "we", the company of collectors and students, seem to be about.  I, too, think it would be wonderful for the grandson to hold his ancestor's work.  Best of luck!

    I second that!