Author Topic: TVM Grand Rifles  (Read 45705 times)

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2012, 04:21:14 PM »
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TVM is highly successful because they do a great job by and large at what they do.  They turn out a lot of good looking functional  longrifles.  One stop shopping.
I couldn't agree more. Nobody turns out more generic guns at low prices than TVM. I have no idea how they do it. I figure they must have several employees.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2012, 04:26:10 PM »
It's funny that some gun buliders on this site cut down other buliders guns.

I have yet to hear TVM cut down anyone about thier guns.


Since we're admitting what we find funny I'll join in. What I find funny is so many people have such a difficult time judging the quality of guns. But, I'm probably the only one that finds that strange.
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Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2012, 05:18:30 PM »
 Mike,
      It is funny, in a sad sort of way. There are folks around who can't tell the difference between a beautifully crafted and accurate copy of a Hawken and the various factories that churn out non replica rifles and call them Hawkens. These same mis-guided individuals can't discern any difference between a generic "Kentucky" rifle made in a land far away and a handmade rifle that looks as if it was made in the 18th or 19th century.
      These people shop by price alone and get what they deserve. The word custom has a different meaning to them and is so  mis-used as to be meaningless. And so concludes my rant...
                                           Dan

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2012, 05:21:37 PM »
I'm with you Mike.  Compliments and over the top praises are thrown around on this website and others like it too frequently in my view.  Yes it is good to encourage and I'm all for that.  I think much of this comes from well meaning people and it isn't meant to be harmful in any way.  It takes a lot of time to be able to judge and evaluate a gun well.  Many just cant do this.  In fact you must be able to do this to be able to build a high quality gun.  There are some who live in isolated areas and don't get much exposure.  There are others who have a bit of an inflated sense of their abilities.  A good rule is to ask yourself where the compliments are coming from and what their accomplishments and abilities are.  Over the top compliments even when well meaning can be offensive to those who have put the huge amount of time and effort in to gain the necessary knowledge and skills to build a high quality gun.  Finally it goes without saying there will be varying tastes to some degree, but there will be a general consensus.

Jim

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2012, 05:35:15 PM »
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there will be a general consensus.
Not to change the subject, but, wasn't he in command of the Mexican troops in the Mex-American war? ;)
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2012, 06:47:33 PM »
Much comes down to what the judging criteria is. A rifle which balances well, holds/ sights /fits etc and iss well crafted and looks 18th C ish , has nice wood etc etc....is often enough for most I know. Generic styled guns.   When I was dealing with Jack Garner, he was selling a Fowling gun, but, when I looked at it, he had used the southern colonial rifle style buttplate instead of a fowling type. I askedhim about it, as well as his use of a wood screw in the tang. He replied " that's the way we do it "  As I said ; a lot of folks had no problem with that.   If I wrote down all the things that I didn't know that I didn't know, I'd have a book !
30 years ago, I really really wanted a Hatfield rifle. Sam Fadala wrote an article about them, and they looked gorgeous to my eyes at the time. I never did get one, but had I placed an order, the gun would have stayed with me for a short while only. After learning more, the attraction would have diminished, and I would have traded it off. Now...had I purchased a gun from E.K. , I would still treasure it today, and 20 years from now. That is the difference that is often overlooked when judging/critiquing a gun.

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2012, 07:47:00 PM »
Well put, Bob, Mike and Jim. I know what I like, but cannot do an accurate evaluation or critique due to my lack of knowledge of the nuances, differences and subtleties in the schools and areas. I know roughly what a Lancaster is supposed to look like - late Bedford or even a  Tennessee rifle, the more subtle differences (blatant differences to many of you), are beyond my observation skills. Still, I know what I like, I know the difference between clubby, slab-sided and properly proportioned. I am MOST fortunate in having Taylor for a brother, love his work, skill and patience, all of which are wayyyy beyond me & my abilities.

Many of us are learning as we look over guns made and critiqued on this and other sites - we also note when the 'better' makers don't post elaborate praise of the work, but offer constructive criticism (hopefully) to help those asking for it.  I can well understand how it must grate the better makers and critique's when undeserved praise is humped/lumped/and seemingly smotheringly dumped on a piece, with each post attempting to outdo the previous praise - doesn't happen often but does happen.  Such posts do not help the maker in the least - this I recognise, but along with 'instruction' should come praise for architecture or work that is done correctly, as most always happens - and we learn while not being discouraged.

I firmly believe if a gun is presented here, it is being offered up for critique - be it a 'custom' rifle or factory rifle. That puts Patagonia, TC, CVA, TVM, Jim Chambers, Taylor or whomever up for critique.

Bear with us, we're learning.

Offline Kopfjaeger

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2012, 09:32:38 PM »
What I find funny is:   " The grave yards are full of indispensable men "   Charles de Galle


« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 09:39:55 PM by Kopfjaeger »
" A godly man and his rifle deprive sleep from the wicked, A christian man who prays is the defeater of evil, A praying man who will fight is the conqueror of nations and the hope of the oppressed "

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2012, 09:54:44 PM »
Ah,yes,LeGrande Charles De Gaulle. Wasn't he the one whose footprints were 14 feet apart leaving France after Hitler hit France in 1940 and afterward,took credit for the liberation of Paris in August of 1944.History records a German General,Dieter von Choltitz was the man who got word to Eisenhower to hurry and get there because Hitler ordered Paris destroyed. This German General was no choir boy and was the one who flattened Sevastopol in the Crimea but he would not let himself be known as the barbarian that destroyed one of Europe's most beautiful cities.

Bob Roller

Offline hanshi

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2012, 10:22:42 PM »
Quote
there will be a general consensus.
Not to change the subject, but, wasn't he in command of the Mexican troops in the Mex-American war? ;)



Yes he was.  But he was relieved of command after the ensuing debacle thet ocurred when the general gave a rear guard command to Major Flaw. ;D
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2012, 10:26:40 PM »
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LeGrande Charles De Gaulle. Wasn't he the one whose footprints were 14 feet apart leaving France
Bob,
He is a national hero.  Rumor has it that France is trying to buy the Rock of Gibraltar.  They want to rename it De Gaulle Stone.
Dave Kanger

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-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline hanshi

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2012, 10:41:42 PM »
Not to get tangential on this thread, but I also know what I like.  Many guns have been posted that were very well done and correct and I usually like them to the max.  They are often very beautiful and very finely crafted.  But many of these - not all by any stretch of the imagination - simply don't feel right or handle well for me.  Because of this HC/PC has always taken a back seat to being "fitted", so to speak.  If it doesn't suit me ergonomically, I can't use it.  Because of this and because I require certain "accommodations" built into any gun I have made, they usually are not near 100% HC/PC but also end up very different from the usual gun produced by the builder.  For me this means an unequivocally custom gun.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Offline hanshi

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2012, 10:43:20 PM »
Quote
LeGrande Charles De Gaulle. Wasn't he the one whose footprints were 14 feet apart leaving France
Bob,
He is a national hero.  Rumor has it that France is trying to buy the Rock of Gibraltar.  They want to rename it De Gaulle Stone.



OH, that one hurt! :P
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Vomitus

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2012, 10:52:49 PM »
No no no,it was Major Bumsore!

Offline Robby

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2012, 11:02:27 PM »
Nestle's makes a Hundred Grand candy bar, the last I heard, if you don't like them, you don't have to buy them, you don't even have to pick one up and heft it as you peruse the aisle. TVM fills a niche, has many, many happy, satisfied customers, and apparently they can make an honest living doing it. What is wrong with that!? ???
Robby
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2012, 01:56:33 AM »
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What is wrong with that!
Nothing. I just get easily bored with mediocrity. I mean, once you've seen one TVM gun you've seen them all. Nothing interesting, just another punched out Corinth school gun. Boring, boring, boring. Need more drop? We'll just give the pattern more bend in the wrist till it looks like a dog's hind leg. Of course if you go with the GRAND gun you get $3000 worth of mediocrity.  :o That's not boring..... I'm at a loss for words there.... ;)
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2012, 01:59:49 AM »
No no no,it was Major Bumsore!
Don't forger Major Disaster and his uncle Major Catastrophe..... They take up occasional residence in my shop..... ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2012, 02:00:07 AM »
Nestle's makes a Hundred Grand candy bar, the last I heard, if you don't like them, you don't have to buy them, you don't even have to pick one up and heft it as you peruse the aisle. TVM fills a niche, has many, many happy, satisfied customers, and apparently they can make an honest living doing it. What is wrong with that!? ???
Robby

Nothing at all wrong with that.  Also nothing wrong with sharing honest opinions regarding the quality of an object if someone is so inclined.

Offline Habu

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2012, 03:28:24 AM »
Ah,yes,LeGrande Charles De Gaulle. Wasn't he the one whose footprints were 14 feet apart leaving France after Hitler hit France in 1940 and afterward,took credit for the liberation of Paris in August of 1944.
Bob, I don't know about that--way before my time.  Grandpa did mention that the folks who hid him out when he visited France in late '43 had a capon named LeGrande Charles--suppose there's a connection?

As for the TVM guns . . .  well, they aren't inlines, they don't have stainless barrels or glass stocks or mounts for red dot sights . . .  and as modern production guns go, they aren't all that hard to look at.  Seems they make a pretty gun, and with a few options to let the purchaser personalize the gun so it is more likely to actually be shot.   Most folks buying them are buying a gun to shoot, not a piece of art. 

Offline Robby

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2012, 04:07:26 AM »
I think your right Habu. For a company that doesn't put out guns for critique, they sure do garner a lot of criticism. Maybe it their success.
I think I understand what you mean Mike. There seems to be a lot of high end mediocrity out there there lately too. Guns done to perfection, everything! Like a good breed of hunting dog that has had its basic instinct bread out of it for the sake of the show ring. They look great, yet inert, boring, lifeless.
Robby
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Offline smart dog

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2012, 05:53:59 AM »
I think your right Habu. For a company that doesn't put out guns for critique, they sure do garner a lot of criticism. Maybe it their success.
I think I understand what you mean Mike. There seems to be a lot of high end mediocrity out there there lately too. Guns done to perfection, everything! Like a good breed of hunting dog that has had its basic instinct bread out of it for the sake of the show ring. They look great, yet inert, boring, lifeless.
Robby

Hi Robby,
You are correct because many gunmakers, even very highly skilled ones, are not artists.  Their work exhibits great craftsmanship and skill but not necessarily art.  Then again, very few old-time American makers were artists either.  They were mostly making tools for use, occasionally a piece of rural folk art, and even more rarely an example of high-end decorative art.  Anyway, in my opinion, the TVM Grand rifles are a nice example of basic function and pretty good craftsmanship.  Whether or not they are worth the price, I have no idea.  I guess they are to the happy owners.  Nonetheless, this forum should in no way be concerned about being too critical as long as we all focus on the product not the maker.  Again IMO, honest and blunt criticism should be the norm and appreciated, and it is entirely appropriate to critique TVM's products.

Take care,

dave     
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Number19

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2012, 06:27:25 AM »
Finally getting my Late Lancaster Grand Rifle after a year wait. Should get it in a couple weeks...
Since this thread is about the TVM Grand, I hope you will post photos when it comes in. My deposit for the Grand was dated June 3, 2011 and Rod informed me they had started my rifle the first week in May, which is using the EV template.

Offline Kopfjaeger

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2012, 07:40:44 AM »
People who cut down other people or what other people do have a serious character flaw. I do not do bussiness with these kind of people no matter how great thier product is, nor do I recommend them.




As far as de Galle, unless you were in the military and in a war you shouldn't pass judgement on someone who was. It's easy to be brave sitting at home while someone else fights and dies for your freedoms be them american or french. or british.  I know I served eight years in the Army as a military policeman, and was in the first gulf war. So until you can look into your wife of one year's eyes knowing you might not come back your opinon means nothing to me.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 09:19:10 AM by Kopfjaeger »
" A godly man and his rifle deprive sleep from the wicked, A christian man who prays is the defeater of evil, A praying man who will fight is the conqueror of nations and the hope of the oppressed "

Offline Kopfjaeger

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2012, 07:48:04 AM »
Number 19,

I'll email you some pictures of my late lancaster grand rifle when I get it.

I to have a early virginia rifle made by TVM and its beautiful and is very accurate. I also have a rifle and a smoothbore made by Danny Caywood.

And two squirrel rifles, one made by TVM and the other made by Phil Cravener.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 08:58:04 AM by Kopfjaeger »
" A godly man and his rifle deprive sleep from the wicked, A christian man who prays is the defeater of evil, A praying man who will fight is the conqueror of nations and the hope of the oppressed "

Offline Robby

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Re: TVM Grand Rifles
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2012, 02:56:15 PM »
"Again IMO, honest and blunt criticism should be the norm and appreciated, and it is entirely appropriate to critique TVM's products."
I agree Dave, though sometimes its a matter of context and intent.  The best critique on a gun I had posted here was from you, "I don't like it, its like a Mona Lisa on a Grandma Moses", or something very close to that. Wish I could find it in the search function, I think you were right!
I think everyone making these guns is an artist to one degree or another, if I understand the word correctly. Even in functional art as opposed to art for arts sake, there are those that are able to impart a Joie de vivre that almost gives it animation. Always enjoy seeing your goods, no matter what era your working in.
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln