TVM Grand Rifles

[smokinbuck]

Mike,
Not trying to pick a fight but when you, I and 14 other folks can get the same rifle, with modifications as requested, I think of it as a semi custom. If you build me a rifle that I specify then I would call that a custom rifle. Pre carved or not, their stocks come off a duplicator, I don't think yours, and a lot of other builders, do.
Mark

[smart dog]

:(I've wanted a TVM Grand rifle for quite sometime. Their  recent price increase has put the rifles out of my reach and also has affected many other potential buyers I'm sure! I'm on SS and my increases  (none the past two years) have not been 30%. Slowly we old folks are being priced out of just about everything. Will it ever end??

Bonron,
No, it will never end until we are into deflation.  When that happens, we will be bartering for goods.

dave

[Mike Brooks]

Mike,
Not trying to pick a fight but when you, I and 14 other folks can get the same rifle, with modifications as requested, I think of it as a semi custom. If you build me a rifle that I specify then I would call that a custom rifle. Pre carved or not, their stocks come off a duplicator, I don't think yours, and a lot of other builders, do.
Mark

There was a thread on TVM that roundball was participating in on another board and I believe a employee of TVM posted that their guns were all made from blanks, which I found shocking asthey all look the same. I would have thought precarve for sure, but with that employee's info I figured I was wrong. Maybe roundball can chime in here and straighten this out.

I have always been confused about semi VS full custom. Take my carolina guns for instance. They are made from a precarve, but I cut out all the sheet brass mounts these days with a hacksaw so The finials on all of them are slightly different. They are also all hand engraved and each has a diffferent engraving pattern according to the mood of the day.  What say you, semi or full custom?

I'm not picking a fight either, just curious what other folks think.

[T*O*F]

If you build me a rifle that I specify then I would call that a custom rifle.

A gun built to a customer's exact specifications is called a "bespoke" gun.

The word "custom" has lost all meaning these days and has become a phony adjective included in a description to add meaningless value to the item.  Read some of the For Sale ads and even the crappiest items have the word custom added to them.

Pre carved or not, their stocks come off a duplicator

Their stocks do not come off a duplicator.  Each and every one of them starts as a blank.  The basic shape is bandsawed to one of their pattern templates.  The LEFT side of the blank is then run over a planer to true it.  This is because of the rotation of the spindle shaper used to cut the barrel and ramrod channels, which are then cut.  A series of lines are then hand-drawn and all excess wood is bandsawed off.  To this point, it's the same method used by many builders.  The stock is then shaped using a 3" angle grinder and a 1" hand held belt sander.  All parts are hand inlet and final shaping is done with rasps and files just like everyone else.

[smokinbuck]

TOF,
I apologize if I'm wrong about the TVM stock work. Based on the volume that they do and the fact that they do all look alike, in the various patterns, I presume they used a duplicator. Perhaps Duplicator is the wrong word and spindle machine is the right tool. However, there has to be a pattern, spindle or duplicator.
Mark

[Vomitus]

    Here's my take on this matter. Full "customs" are made by "artists". the end,lol!

[T*O*F]

Based on the volume that they do and the fact that they do all look alike, in the various patterns, I presume they used a duplicator.

I have often referred to how their gun are made as the "Corinth School of Gunmaking."  The system was developed by Jack Garner decades ago.  Jack was a stockmaker and carved each one from a blank, under the name of Jack's Stocks.  Jack worked for Dixie Gun Works for many years.  All the stocks that Dixie used to sell in their catalog were made by Jack.  After leaving Dixie, he started TVM.  Over the years, Jackie Brown, Matt Avance, and several others worked for Jack as builders.  They learned his system.  If you worked for him and couldn't learn to carve a stock in a couple of hours....you didn't work for him anymore.  He developed the templates for cutting the basic shape of the gun from the blank.  That is why all the guns look the same.  Each school is cut from the same template.  He also developed the TVM Grand Rifle.  Just like a woodcarver can cut a drugstore Indian from a log with a chainsaw, so do they carve gunstocks with hand held power tools......and they are good at it.

When I moved to TN, I tried to learn the system but was never able to master the hand held grinder and belt sander.  I did adopt the template system and I trace an outline of every gun that I get my hands on and cut a template for it.  However, this is no different than tracing a blueprint of a gun on to the blank.  I also picked up several other tips which make the build go much quicker  These are some examples of templates.  Many gunbuilders do the same if they build guns of a particular pattern.

Perhaps Duplicator is the wrong word and spindle machine is the right tool. However, there has to be a pattern, spindle or duplicator.

A spindle shaper is nothing more than a horizontal wood mill.  It has nothing to do with shaping the stock.  It is used only for cutting the barrel and ramrod channels and does each operation in one pass.  This is no different than sending your wood out to one of the guys who do the same operations.....mostly using a mill instead of a shaper.  There are bits for each barrel and ramrod groove width.  I've shown mine before...but here it is again.



As one who has first hand knowledge (and not rumor or supposition) I can say that each stock made by any of the above individuals is hand carved from scratch, but by using hand held power tools.  I hope this clears the subject up once and for all and this topic is allowed to die a peaceful death.

[smokinbuck]

TOF,
A lot of information that I, obviously, wasn't aware of. I stand corrected, Thanks.
Mark

[RMHC]

 got me one of the RARE Birdseye Ash rifles Matt was making from PLANKS/BOARDS ... a few years back.
100 % handmade by the way.
 well worth what I paid then...
wonder the REASON for the drastic price increase ?
 TVM is by far , some of the finest people to KNOW and do business with.
Toni is the QUEEN of the rifle builders in my book.
A REAL LADY
  That was my 3 cents

[squire]

That's custom in my book working to a pattern notwithstanding. 

[Kopfjaeger]

TVM is a class act to me. I told them I was going to order a grand rifle and they told me to get my order in before july because there was going to be a price increase. Not to many people would of done that.

I ordered the rifle and saved money.

[Don Getz]

I think the word "grand" is used very loosly here.................Don

[Kopfjaeger]

Thats what TVM calls the rifle " TVM Grand Rifle "

Maybe Grand doesn't mean money, maybe it means: high in power and dignity, distingulshed, superior, majestic, all straight from the webster dictionary. 

[Kopfjaeger]

Finally getting my Late Lancaster Grand Rifle after a year wait.

Should get it in a couple weeks.

TVM Grand Rifle / Late Lancaster Rifle Style
 
Brass Furniture / Brass Engraved
 
Barrel: 42" / 7/8" ( Browned ) 50 Caliber
 
Lock:  Flintlock Large Siler ( Browned )
 
Triggers: Double Set
 
Right Handed
 
Lenght Of Pull:  14" inches
 
Patch Box: 3 Piece Patch Box ( PB21-B Western Pennsylvania ) ( no extra cost ) Engraved
 
Stock: Best Curly Maple they Have.( additional: $300.00 ) Stock Carved
 
Carvings: / As mentioned on thier web-site.
 

[elk killer]

wasnt it back in the 80s at some point,,
when Jack Garner would build the rifle..
then Glen Jones would carve it..and they called it a Grand rifle?
as it sold for $1000.00 back then..
i know for a fact that a awful lot of rifles that Glen Jones carved and engraved..
were built  by Dick Hart..i saw many of them in the white..
didnt mean  to highjack your thread...

[bob in the woods]

I used to buy a lot of parts etc from Jack Garner. A great fellow, and wonderful to deal with. I loved talking to him on the phone when I'd place an order. Good stories, .......I'd tell him about it being  minus 38 deg F
with snow 4 feet deep,and he'd laugh and laugh !  Anyway, back about 20 plus years ago, that "Grand Rifle" was $ 1,000. 00    

[bob in the woods]

OK-   I guess that was 25 + years ago that he was advertising his Grand Rifle ....time sure flies 

[Don Getz]

The late John Bivins made most of his guns from pre-shaped stocks.   After the gun is finished, how can you tell how it was
made?  Did you ever examine some of Jim Chambers guns?   Most of them are built from his kits.  Does that diminish their
value?  No matter how you start out, you must get the gun down to a shaped object, it's what you do next that makes it
a great gun.  The word "custom" is a very generic term.    It is either a factory made gun, or if it's built by hand, one at a
time, could be called a "custom" gun.   The word "custom" could take in all hand made guns, and the quality of them can
run the whole gamut from outstanding to a POS.   Even my barn guns are "custom" guns.  I have seen $800 dollar kits
turned into $500 guns.  Just because you have chewed your gun out of a big plank doesn't make it any better that one
that is built from a pre-shaped stock.  Maybe you should sharpen up your hatchet and drawknife, while you are working
with those tools, I'm inletting the lock or butt plate................Don

[Kermit]

"Custom" tells me it was made to order for a client and to his/her requested specifications. I guess that if the guns is sold by the first owner, the second owner can't claim "custom" because he didn't order it "custom" made.

I currently have 7 flint rifles and smoothbores, all made for me--except the TVM "Early Virginia." It has a rifled OTR barrel, figured walnut stock, and an L&R round-faced lock, none of which are used on any of their EV's I've seen. Must have been "custom." Whoever ordered it must be my doppelganger, cuz I have never had a rifle fit better or handle better. I bought it to hunt with just as my knees and hips told me to give it up. I think of selling it from time to time, but all I have to do is shoulder it and it goes back in the cabinet.

As to Matt and Toni, when I bought this rifle, I contacted them to learn more about it. They graciously took time to answer my questions, even though I wasn't on the other end of the line drooling to place an order. Nice folks.

[Mike Brooks]

I think the word "grand" is used very loosly here.................Don

I couldn't find much that was grand with a grand rifle......probably just me though.

[Don Getz]

I agree with you Mike, the only thing grand about these guns was the name.   But, on the other hand, what do you expect  to get for a grand?  I won't even make a barn gun for that..........Don

[bob in the woods]

Back in the days when the Grand rifle cost a "grand", it was a fair chunk of $.  Lock plate engraved, brass engraved, carving etc ...in other words,jack took his standard rifle, and fancied it up.  Back then, you could have purchased a rifle from E. Kettenburg for about the same.....maybe even a wee bit less !!!   A plain rifle of course, but never the less, it puts things in perspective for the times.  Also around in the same period,were the "Hatfield " rifles.  Here in Canada, they were around a $1000.bucks too     The only rifle I am sorry I didn't buy is.......[  insert your guess here ! ] 

[hanshi]

Over the years I've had 6 TVMs built to my specifications and still have them all but one and that one was probably the most accurate.  That's the definition of "custom", having something made for you to your specifications.  I've yet to come across any other TVMs that could even remotely be called twins of my guns.  I have two TVM late Lancasters - built to my design - that are so different they could have been built by different people.  A friend has a TVM smoothbore like mine but other than the same caliber they don't look or shoulder alike.  I recently took delivery on an "early Lancaster" from Matt.  Off course I specified a great many things as far as how it should look/handle but an EL was its bones.  Honestly, the rifle looks almost nothing like the picture on their site.  It's best described as a Lancaster/York hybrid due to the work I required.  The EL is suppose to be a fairly large, flat butt plate rifle a bit heavier than the LL or at least the mountings are suppose to be.  With a 38" x 50 x swamped Rice barrel with round bottom rifling and Chambers GA lock, this dainty rifle can't come even close to 7lbs, large flat butt and all.  I'm only 5'4" and that had a lot to do with it.  The furniture, advertised as larger/heavier than the LL, is NOT larger or heavier than that for the LL and appears to be the same. 

IIRC, the grand is called that because it indeed did sell for a grand two or three generations ago.  I don't know about those days but several builders work there including Matt's son, Richard.  The "grand" as currently made can be ordered as pretty much "stock" but why would anyone do that.  It can be planned so as to stand with most any rifle currently built for $3000 and even more.

I stand in awe of some of the builders who've chimed in, here.  While they are (obviously) different in what they do I can't honestly say one is better than another.  It really depends on what you want and how much you want to plan and do your research.....and spend.

[Kopfjaeger]

It's funny that some gun buliders on this site cut down other buliders guns.

I have yet to hear TVM cut down anyone about thier guns.

[rich pierce]

It's funny that some gun buliders on this site cut down other buliders guns.
I have yet to hear TVM cut down anyone about thier guns.

That's a very good point.  I'm not sure folks here would be so tolerant if there was discussion questioning the merit of an individual builder's work.  Wait- I take that back as it happened here recently.  The common thread is when someone calls or labels their own work "great", it seems to rub some the wrong way.  Even if just a marketing term.

TVM is highly successful because they do a great job by and large at what they do.  They turn out a lot of good looking functional  longrifles.  One stop shopping.