Tapered Ramrods

[Benedict]

Did the original guns have tapered ramrods?  Some of the books say yes some do not mention it.  After many years of building guns with nontapered ramrods, I am thinking about doing so with this gun.  But if it is not "original", I won't bother.

Also, I assume that if you taper the ramrod, you have to taper the groove.  Is that correct?

If you taper the groove, how do you get a groove riding molding scraper to work?

Bruce

[bob in the woods]

Did the " originals" ?   I think so, but my knowledge re this is not great. I do it because they work better in the field. The ram rod groove is not tapered. That is, I've never seen one that was.

[rich pierce]

The taper is mostly at the muzzle end, beyond the first thimble and then some taper of the part that is in the hole.

[Black Hand]

Taper the rod, drill the hole straight-sided.

[keweenaw]

One very early original rifle I have - we're talking 1770's here - has a tapered front pipe on it, clearly meant for a tapered rod.  On my the rifles I build, I use a tapered front pipe.  Do it!

Tom

[Stophel]

I taper my rods and rod holes.  I have a couple of German 18th century guns where the rod hole is clearly tapered.  I have one Mass. rifle from the early 19th century where the rod hole MAY be tapered.  I can't tell.  It is decidedly smaller than the upper thimbles... smaller than the lower thimble too.

I drill my rod holes with a 5/16" bit then taper it with a square tapered reamer I made from a piece of 3/8 steel rod.  It was a LOT of grinding and filing to make it, but by golly, it works surprisingly well.  I amazed myself with it.

[Benedict]

My understanding was that the rod was straight in the hole but tapered from the entry to the muzzle.  So it seems that the GROOVE needs to be tapered so the rod will lie in it nicely.  Having a big rod is nice for loading but makes the gun too thick so having a thick rod outside the hole and a smaller one in the hole allows the gun to be slimmer.

This is the first I ever heard of tapering the rod inside the hole.  I guess it makes some sense to it would not stick.  My problem is usually that the rod is too loose not that it sticks.

Bruce

[don getz]

Bruce......If you haven't tapered the part of the ramrod that goes into the hole, or into the forestock of the gun, I must
assume that you have built very few guns............Don

[Benedict]

I have build 30 or 40 rifles.  Maybe I have been lucky but I also live in the West where it is quite dry.  The ramrods do not have a sticking problem even in the rain.  I assume that is why you would taper the part of the rod in the hole.

[Darrin McDonal]

When the NMLRA holds their gunbuilding classes at Bowling Green each June the originals that are compiled in the gun room for display do show evidence of tapered ramrods. As a matter of fact the rifle # 42 gun from Shumways Rifles of colonial America has ramrod pipes / thimbles that are wider at the entry then the rear. At least the first one does. Wallace and Gary would be better to imput on this though.
Darrin

[David Rase]

Bruce,  I don't know if I am right, wrong or indifferent but this is what works for me and it is how I do most of my .50 caliber and larger rifles.  After cutting a 3/8" groove in the upper forestock I drill a 3/8" hole in the lower forestock.  Since I make my own entry pipes and thimbles I can make them any diameter I want.  My entry pipe is 3/8" diameter, my middle thimble is 13/32" diameter and my front thimble is 7/16" diameter.  This allows me to taper the entire ramrod.  After I inlet the entry pipe and thimbles I use a rat tailed file and taper the ram rod groove width to match the thimble diameter.  As for the ramrod, I start with a 1/2" diameter blank and taper it to 5/16" on the small end.  I use the thimbles and pipes to check the taper.  I start tapering the ramrod checking ofter until the front thimble slides up the ramrod in relationship to where it is on the gun.  I continue to taper from behind the first thimble until the middle thimble slide into position on the rod.  I do the same for the entry pipe.  I then continue to taper the ramrod to the desired small diameter.  Since I make my own tip I am not held to standard diameters but normally I taper to 5/16".  I have been doing ramrods like this for many years and I like the flared look they the give the rifle at the muzzle.
DMR

[Benedict]

Dave,
Thanks for the detailed description of procedure.  One of the big questions that I have been wondering about is cutting the molding on the side of the RR groove.  I have seen lots of molding planes and scapers that ride in the groove and it seems to me that a tapered groove would not allow that.

Bruce

[Stophel]

I don't really taper the exposed part of the ramrod (well, it needs to be tapered some, but not appreciably).  Mostly tapered in the lower part that goes into the wood, and the upper end will be flared some....however much the nosecap design will allow, which on most American guns ain't much.

As far as flaring the ramrod groove goes, don't worry about it.  Generally, the groove should be less than half the depth of the rod anyway, and often, the groove is just barely there at all!  The size of the rod pipes or the width of the rod at any point is not so critical.

[Dphariss]

I taper the entire rod to some extent. Less likely to stick if it fits the hole tight. Tapering tho hole would defeat the purpose of not sticking the rod if the stock gets wet. The primary reason for the taper IMO.
I taper 7/16 and 1/2" rods to 3/8" or so. Actually about .355" or so if a 3/8" hole since I make my own tips. But since I just make a .385 drill I can start using a full 3/8" now. Store bought 3/8" rods often will not take a 3/8" tip, they are slightly undersize  or out of round.

Dan

[don getz]

Bruce....the only reason I can see to taper a ramrod is to make it go into the hole easier, sometimes it doesn't take much
to accomplish that.  Then, on the other hand, I have tried to dodge that front lock bolt so many times it just seems natural to taper it.  I guess I've lucked out on the last couple of guns because I didn't have any of those lock bolt problems, kept them up high and out of the hole, whew........Don

[Darrin McDonal]

By The way I suppose everybody knows about the really cool tool Mike Lee sells for tapering the RR and it is supposed to work very well but I have been useing a inexpensive dowel rod maker from Lee Valley. It does a good job starting it but you still have to clean it up and smooth it. But I'll tell you what, it does save you quite a bit of time.

[smshea]

Ive seen alot of original guns, but who knows if the rods were original.

  Ive seen them tapered and some that look kinda straight but ive never seen one that looked like a piece of dowel stock ulness it was a very bad and very recent replacement. I think the most important things are  that they fit, come out, and not look like it just came out of the bin at the hardware store. I like to taper them and on anything 50 cal or larger, I like to start with a 7/16 rod and work the other end to a 5/16 tip.   The usually end up being some where between 7/16 and 3/8 at one end and 5/16 at the other end. If your making your own pipes you just have to make the rod fit as the pipes are almost never as exact as the Tcash pipes.

 That how I do em!

[T*O*F]

I think the most important things are  that they fit, come out, and not look like it just came out of the bin at the hardware store

As a matter of fact, during the percussion period ramrods were commonly sold in hardware and general stores; and were available from many gun supply houses.  A wholesale price listing from Great Western Gun Works, Pittsburgh is as follows:

RODS

Made of First Class Hickory, split, turned, and polished, ready for use

Rifle rods, assorted sizes...............$0.50 per dozen
Shotgun, single, taper finish...........$0.60  do
Shotgun, double, taper finish..........$0.70  do
Heavy cleaning rods for shotguns....$1.00 do
Ebony shotgun rods.........................$2.25 do

Many rods found in antique guns today are in fact these replacement rods.  Notice that only shotgun rods are mentioned as being tapered.

[smshea]

 
 I must admit that my head goes straight to earlier Kentuckys because thats what I do and I should rememeber that not everyone is talking about Colonial and early Federal period rifles.

 Later hardware catalogs are full of gunparts for building or replacement . This was kinda my point, that finding original earlier Kentuckys with there original rod mate is rare at best . My opinion is that they very likely made them both straight and tapered depending on the rifle or the reigon they were in ....its hard to be sure what originaly came with a particular early rifle because of the need and availability of replacements at some later point in the guns life.
  I chose to do what functions best and looks nice. While I can't be sure what the original rods in early rifles all looked like .....Im pretty sure they didn't look like 3/8 dowel stock from Home Depot if you are hanging around 1800 and many otherwise nice early contemporary rifles are spoiled by a ramrod that looks like an 'As Purchased' afterthought. Again....Just my opinion.
 

[JTR]

I've sen my fair share of originals, and would guess that tapered rods were the norm.
But just why, I don't know.
I also doubt that there are many rifles today that have the original rods, but I've seen a few 'right out of the woodwork' guns that likely had original tapered rods. Certainly a lot of rifles have rods that were used during the working life of the gun, and would guess that rods were considered expendable due to breakage, and relitively easily replaced. I say considered expendable, because most rods don't look like they had a huge amount of effort put into their making. None seem to be perfectly straight, perfectly round, or perfectly tapered. Warpage could account for some of the lack of straightness, but a somewhat cock-eyed rod could also help hold it in place.

From lack of necessity, I've never made a rod by splitting it out of a piece of log, and wonder if the split would be such that a tapered rod would be the likely result? Also, if rods were considered expendable, it would be easier to make a tapered one, than one that is straight sided along the full length, espically if you're cutting the thing out in the woods with your pocket knife.

As for the ramrod channel and thimbles, as far as I see the channel are parallel and the thimbles all the same size, with no account given to the taper of the rod.

Tis a different time and place now, and maker/buyer opinions may vary.

John

[Roger Fisher]

I've sen my fair share of originals, and would guess that tapered rods were the norm.
But just why, I don't know.
I also doubt that there are many rifles today that have the original rods, but I've seen a few 'right out of the woodwork' guns that likely had original tapered rods. Certainly a lot of rifles have rods that were used during the working life of the gun, and would guess that rods were considered expendable due to breakage, and relitively easily replaced. I say considered expendable, because most rods don't look like they had a huge amount of effort put into their making. None seem to be perfectly straight, perfectly round, or perfectly tapered. Warpage could account for some of the lack of straightness, but a somewhat cock-eyed rod could also help hold it in place.

From lack of necessity, I've never made a rod by splitting it out of a piece of log, and wonder if the split would be such that a tapered rod would be the likely result? Also, if rods were considered expendable, it would be easier to make a tapered one, than one that is straight sided along the full length, espically if you're cutting the thing out in the woods with your pocket knife.

As for the ramrod channel and thimbles, as far as I see the channel are parallel and the thimbles all the same size, with no account given to the taper of the rod.

Tis a different time and place now, and maker/buyer opinions may vary.

John

Very well said and on the mark!

[Benedict]

There have been some good pointers about whether to taper or not.  The one thing that was not addressed much was how to tapered your rods.  Does anyone have any thoughts on that.  I am looking at Mike Lea's tool and the one described in JHAT. 

Bruce

[Roger Fisher]

There have been some good pointers about whether to taper or not.  The one thing that was not addressed much was how to tapered your rods.  Does anyone have any thoughts on that.  I am looking at Mike Lea's tool and the one described in JHAT. 

Bruce

Mike's product is probably a good one!  I do it this away:: Using my poor man's lathe (my electric drill clamped in the bench vise with the rod chucked up and long end resting in my gloved hand and on the 'arm alongside the bench vise which supports the rifle - guns while working on em.  #80 emory or sand paper wrapped around the rod 1 layer thick.  Carefully now - sanding said rod handy cheap and if it works for me it will work for you.  Near completion switch to finer paper....)

You guys think Getzy was pulling our chain about that bystander telling Don's bro that he better check his flint rifle cause fire is coming outta the back end??? On second thought I guess he isn't!

[David Rase]

I have been sizing and tapering my ramrods for years using the draw plate tapering tool that is described in Shumways book, "Recreating the American Longrifle."  I can cut a ramrod blank out of a hickory plank and have it roughed out to where it fits in the gun in about an hour using this tool.  About half that time if I start with a hickory dowel.  Once I have tapered the rod with the draw plate a evened out the transitions with a long flat board and sand paper I can add the tip to it. 
DMR   

[JTR]

I haven’t made a rod for a new gun lately, just replacements for old ones, but Rogers poor man’s lathe will certainly work.
I use a belt sander with a 60 or 80 grit belt to rough it out, tapering the entire rod from one end to the other. I’m sure ol Dickert would have used one of these if he’d had it,,, and yeah, some place to plug it in. Once it’s roughed, I sand by hand with finer grit but don’t worry about getting all the flat spots or nicks out, and just get it down to generally smooth.
Make the rod 6 or 8 inches too long, then you can cut it off where it fits the thimbles best.
The rods finish depends on the gun’s finish and condition.   
John