Author Topic: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute  (Read 40198 times)

Offline Dphariss

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2011, 06:33:13 AM »
The only coning I recall discussed in "Hawken Rifles" was the 50 caliber rifle TK Dawson owned with the repaired wrist marked Hoffman and Campbell. The book is downstairs and I too lazy too make the trip down.
The coning was very slight, .002-.003 larger at the muzzle, IIRC. I was reading this again a couple of months ago to see the contrast in how this rifle was done and how the modern makers are doing it.

Dan
No, sir, I don't give 'em $#*!, I just tell the truth and they think it's $#*!. Harry S Truman

gregg

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2011, 08:39:24 AM »
Their architecture and workmanship is to be emulated and continued...they are such fine rifles, and quite a departure from the longrifle.  Everyone should have at least one.
I did build a TOW kit back when they first came out with curly maple stocks.
Sold my saddle and bought a Hawken kit gun.  ;) You have ME thinking Mr. Taylor.
Don't you think you can see just a small pinch of longrifle In a Hawken?
English sporter of the same time frame but both different but beautiful with the
same ends???? Just a lose thought.

Offline bjmac

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2011, 06:41:20 PM »
Taylor, considering your vast experience with the Hawken, have you built a full stock version? If so, would you be kind enough to post pictures and particulars? The full stock is what my next build is going to be in .50 cal. Thanks'
BJ

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2011, 07:08:16 PM »
Notgreg - I see the Maryland roots of the Hawken bros in the shape of the buttstock.  I see the English sporting rifle in the standing breech and hooked plug with the double captured key forend.  But this rifle is an entity unto itself as far as I am concerned.  Even compared to other plains and western mountain rifles, it stands alone.  It feels right to have another one in my rack.
Bjmac - I've never built a percussion fullstocked rifle, only flintlocks.  So I have no images of contemporary fullstocked percussion rifles, though there are many originals to study.  In the last few years, I've only built two fullstocked Hawkens, one of which was from Don Stith's part's set, the other has my own stock and hardware from TOW.  I have photos of both of those.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Leatherbelly

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #79 on: March 18, 2011, 07:57:58 PM »
Come on Taylor,show 'em "Hatchet Jackhandles" full stock. It's a thing of beauty also.(for these MTN Man type) Most of us got started using a Hawken. My first was a TC Big Bore,yikes, then a Uberti(close to correct), then a Fraser River Hawken which in my mind was very close to being correct. The FRH was made by Taylor(#66) and I bought it used knowingly with a wrung barrel. I had Taylor rebarrel this rifle with two Don Getz barrels.(that was when Don ramrodded the Getz Barrel Company.) One a fifty and the other a fifty eight. My fathers's friend, Don Robinson, owned the shop that Taylor worked at and produced these fine rifles.
  Yesterday I held Taylor's new rifle and it points really nice,a little heavy for me, but very easy to mount and she holds perfectly.  Watch out Daryls!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 08:01:03 PM by CanvasBack »

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #80 on: March 18, 2011, 11:10:56 PM »
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8848.0  This link should take you to the J & S Hawken I built for a local shooting buddy.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

wetzel

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2011, 05:01:16 AM »
Thank you for that link.  I really enjoyed seeing that build and reading about it.  In reading through your posts I can see that people really have alot of respect for the guns you build, and I do as well.  Your quality of work is truly inspirational and I hope to be able to achieve that kind of quality someday.  I have never built a true Hawken, but am really smitten with the idea.  I am a little intimidated from reading that a Hawken is more complex than a standard longrifle.  What are some of the more complex issues that must be handled when building a Hawken gun, Halfstock or Fullstock?  I was just hoping to get an idea before jumping in.  Thanks again for your posts, descriptions, opinions, and tips.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2011, 05:11:20 AM »
Taylor, that sure is a great looking rifle and while we are on  the suject a question on Hawken tang shapes and inleting same if I may. Jim  Gordons book shows many early J&S Hawken rifles and some of them have a step back shape to the tang, will inletting this type require any special care so as not to get any gaps around the step back section? I hope I'm using the right terminalogy here.   Smylee

Harnic

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2011, 06:09:55 AM »
@!*% Taylor!  I was content to use a cast open sight when I rebarrel my fullstock flint Hawken instead of my "closed" buckhorn from the 50 cal barrel.  After seeing your new sight I know I won't like the open sight.  I guess I'll use it to work up a good accuracy load in the new 58 cal Rice barrel, then figure the trajectory to place your notch in the bottom on at 25 meters, center of the peep at 50, & between the top at 100.  Nice looking sight by the way (the rifle's pretty cool too!  ;) ). 

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #84 on: March 19, 2011, 08:21:50 PM »
Wetzel, your first job is to create a profile blueprint of the rifle.  Start by drawing the barrel, and then add the other parts in full scale.
The commercial breeches that are available often have the wrong profile.  The standing breech on a Hawken should begin to bend downward immediately behind the plug.  When you do this, you will now have to change the curve of the rest of the tang to match your drawing.  Watch for any sideways bending while you are at it.  Having fit the tang to the plug, and the plug to the barrel, I solder the two together with soft solder.  Then I can turn the barrel up-side-down to see it there is any sideways bending to the tang.  I straightened out mine using Ken Guys system with three rods in the vise, to put the pressure where it was needed...worked like a hot @!*%.  These tangs can be easily bent cold.
The tang gets soldered to the plug after you've inlet the barrel into your stock...then the whole tang goes in, lined up neatly by the barrel channel.  Remember that as you go down, the tang will also go rearward too, a little.  With that hour-glass swamp in the tang, this can result in gaps if you are not careful.  Available castings have draft cast right into them, so I clean them up with a file and abrasive to finished polish right before I inlet them.  You don't want to be taking off metal after the inlet is perfect.
Once you have the barrel and tang successfully inlet, you can congratulate yourself, because the rest of the build is pretty straight forward.  I can't think of any other "issues" that might cause problems.  But if you have a question, I'll be pleased to try to answer it.

Smylee, I really like those stepped tangs too, and have never inlet one.  They'd be similar to inletting the tang on a Southern Mountain rifle, I'm thinking.  Again, remember that as you go further down into the wrist, you will also be going toward the butt plate.  It may be as much as 1/16" so take that into consideration when you file the draft into the edges of the tang.  When inletting use a transfer colour and only cut away that which is on the back edges of the inlet..  Remember that if you took away all of the colour, you would have a gap.  Ideally, you want to have solid colour on the inlet when you have it all the way down.  Take you time and keep chisels shaving sharp.

Harry, I'm looking forward to trying out this new sight.  I filed mine out of a piece of 3/4" square stock.  Drill the 3/16" hole first, then the ball mill to recess the front, then hacksaw and file.  I'll bring it to Heffley, and we can use it in the sillouette match.  I won a 200 yard match with my first Hawken, years ago at Thompson Mt. shooting against the cartridge guys.  It was a .62 cal as well.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Harnic

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #85 on: March 19, 2011, 09:39:23 PM »

Harry, I'm looking forward to trying out this new sight.  I filed mine out of a piece of 3/4" square stock.  Drill the 3/16" hole first, then the ball mill to recess the front, then hacksaw and file.  I'll bring it to Heffley, and we can use it in the sillouette match.  I won a 200 yard match with my first Hawken, years ago at Thompson Mt. shooting against the cartridge guys.  It was a .62 cal as well.

I should have known that was you at Thompson Mountain Taylor!   I heard that story way back when... you ruffled a LOT of feathers that day! ;)  I like your design on this sight Taylor & plan to do my own version next week when I finally get out to the shop (I know, I said I'd be out there this week, but I hadn't planned on this nasty flu!).  I'll give you a call soon for another chat.

wetzel

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2011, 11:52:31 PM »
I had wondered what parts were difficult and figured it was the tang business, but wasn't sure.  Your directions make a lot of sense, thank you for taking the time.  I'll bet some feathers were ruffled against the cartridge boys:)

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #87 on: March 20, 2011, 05:26:32 AM »
Thanks for that tip Taylor. The gun i want to come close to replicating is an early J&S Hawken with that type tang and early style breech and lock plate. It will also have an engraved patch box. But for me the stepback tang will probably be the most taxing of the build jobs as I havent done one like that before. Thanks again.  Smylee

Offline Bill Ridout

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #88 on: March 25, 2011, 07:36:23 PM »
Taylor- Beautiful Rifle! The pictures of the original you put up was of a rifle formally in the Serven collection if I am remembering correctly what you said. If you recall the photographs of seven rifles from that collection in Baird's book "Hawken Rifles- The Mountain Man's Choice", is this not the same rifle that was the middle rifle in those pictures? If so, then that is the rifle I chose to scale up from the pictures to build one for myself somewhere around 1980. I used a GRRW .54 caliber X 1-1/8" X 34" straight barrel. Just wondering if that is the same rifle.
Be Well,
Bill ridout
If the noise does not improve upon the silence, then let the silence prevail.
Thomas Jefferson

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #89 on: March 25, 2011, 09:29:44 PM »
Bill, I've looked at that pair of photos hundreds of times over the past many years.  I just checked it again, and sure enough, that rifle is there.  But it is the second from the top on the first (lock side) page, and second from the bottom on the opposing page.  Your build would have been close to the original in it's barrel choice...the original is .52 cal I believe, and has a 35" barrel slightly under 1 1/8" at the breech.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Bill Ridout

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Re: S. Hawken..inspiration and tribute
« Reply #90 on: March 25, 2011, 11:07:17 PM »
Okay. I was torn between the second rifle in the photo and the fourth (middle) one. settled on the one I did because when I blew that photo up to life size, the middle one was clearer. My rifle is a real shooter. Through the years, it has accounted for 37 deer and has won me many prizes at matches. I've been shooting it pretty regularly fo thirty years and it shoots as good today as ever.
      You are right, it's hard to stay away from the Hawken rifles. They use up a lot more powder and lead than the smaller calibers, but they just feel right when you hold them.

Thanks for responding,
Bill
If the noise does not improve upon the silence, then let the silence prevail.
Thomas Jefferson