hunting with a flinter

[jim m]

for you guys/gals that hunt what do you prime with. lately I've went to 3f because I've noticed that with 4f on humid days and the powder has been in the pan for a while it is often not to reliable. as an experiment I hunted with the same 3f in the pan for 3 days in a row and on the 3rd day it fired flawlessly.  most of the time I can't tell the difference in ignition time with either 3 or 4f in the pan, but at the range I usually use 4f. just currious what others do

[jerrywh]

I shoot 3f and use the same thing in the pan when hunting. No problems.

[KentSmith]

I load and prime with 2f in my 54 cal flintlock.  Always fill the freezer.

[rich pierce]

Agree, it's a pain to carry a priming horn and the 4F stuff gets muddy fast in the wet.

[George Sutton]

I always hunt with 3F in the pan. It doesn't wick moisture like 4F or 7F does. The larger powders are "glazed" so there is some moisture resistance.
On thre line at the range or during woodswalks I always use 7F.

Centershot

[R. Hare]

I prme with 2F, same as I use down barrel.
Done it for 12-14 years no bother, and hunted in some fairly rough  Canadian weather.
Lock's  Jim Chambers English though, or a Chambers early Ketland.....Lots of big fat sparks.
Only use 4F for matchlock.

Cheers,

Richard.

[Darkhorse]

I only prime with 4F. Never had a problem with it. Even in the humidity of central Georgia.
Also never kept prime in my pan for 3 days. Seems like an unsafe thing to do just to try a little experiment. 99.9% of all home experiments I read about are not worth the time it takes to type. The only type I'm interested in are Larry Pletchers. If its not done in a strictly scientific fashion using strict controls and baselines I usually don't even finish the read.

[Dphariss]

If the pan is clean, *absolutely* no fouling, FFFFG should not suck up any more moisture than FFFG.
In fact if FFFFG is pulling in excess moisture from the air it has formulation problems. Probably impure saltpeter having sodium nitrate in the mix will cause the powder to be increasingly moisture sensitive and the percentage goes up.
A FOULED pan/barrel will suck up water like a sponge and wet any powder it is in contact with.

In other words all things being equal FFFG will get just as wet as FFFFG. Now FFFG from a DIFFERENT LOT may have different characteristics. GOOD powder should not pull excess water from the air "glazed" or not. But since FFFFG, FFFG and FFG are made in the same manner....
I live in a dry climate but when hunting in a snow storm etc humidity here can go to 90+ I use FFFFG exclusively with no problem and its decades old GOEX which technically is not as good as new GOEX should be.
FFG increases "lock time" in actual timing tests.
If the weather is damp/wet/snowy I carry the rifle in a cover.

Dan

[William Worth]

For hunting, I prime with 3F.  It stays in the pan better than 4F.  Ask me how I found out that I needed to do this.

[t.caster]

I use 2f Goex in my .54 & both .62 barrels and always used 4f in pan just out of habit. I have tried 2f for prime and it works OK, but I "think" I can tell the difference in lock speed. Maybe not, but my mind tells me 2f is slower. If I ever ran out of 4f, I would use whatever else I had, and not worry about it.

[Daryl]

Tom & RB - Taylor and I both use 4F for prime. Yes - we can tell the difference, whether we're using a Chamber's lock, L&R, Davis or whatever. Even 3F is slower to ignite "the powder in the barrel".  It is the heat of the pan's flash that ignites the charge, and as 4F has a 'higher' flash heat than anything larger in granulation it gives noticably quicker igniton.
: Time-lapse photography shows ignition in the pan is very close, too close perhaps to notice, but it's the ignition in the bore that is important.  For hunting, perhaps 3f would be just fine - I've tried it and perfer 4F.  I find no problems shooting 4f in damp conditions after wiping the moisture out of the pan and from the underside of the frizzen.

[Dphariss]

For hunting, I prime with 3F.  It stays in the pan better than 4F.  Ask me how I found out that I needed to do this.

If the lock will not hold FFFFG in the pan it needs work.

Dan

[tg]

I now use 3f for both it is just easier to carry one horn the speed difference is not noticable to me, and even in a freshly cleaned and dried pan I have found that the 4f gets gummy. I recall hearing an explaination some years back about the 4f not being glazed or something to that effect, but I know it gets damp faster than the courser powders, it may just be a matter of surface area, I have poured small amounts on a clean plate and set them out on a damp morning and poked and fiddled with them and there was no doubt that the 4f was taking moisture and caking when the 3f was still completely loose. but the simplicity of a single horn is the real plus I like, and I try to duplicate the experience that they had in the days gone by and this is just another thing to help,I don't use liners anymore, or short starters. I have seen the trend to use the same powder for main charge and prime seems to be catching on judging from the posts on seberal ML forums.

[George Sutton]

In other words all things being equal FFFG will get just as wet as FFFFG. Now FFFG from a DIFFERENT LOT may have different characteristics. GOOD powder should not pull excess water from the air "glazed" or not. But since FFFFG, FFFG and FFG are made in the same manner....

I guess we can agree to disagree


Centershot

[Dphariss]

In other words all things being equal FFFG will get just as wet as FFFFG. Now FFFG from a DIFFERENT LOT may have different characteristics. GOOD powder should not pull excess water from the air "glazed" or not. But since FFFFG, FFFG and FFG are made in the same manner....

I guess we can agree to disagree


Centershot

I am not saying that your FFFFG did not turn to goop. I am attempting to explain the reason.
So I must ask.
Disagree based on what? Do you disagree that powder made with potassium nitrate contaminated with sodium nitrate will suck moisture from the air? Or that powder made with pure potassium nitrate will not suck up enough moisture from the air to turn to goop? Or that if the powder sucks up water from the air and turns to goop its very poor powder from the standpoint of purity of its ingredients?

The statements I made concerning purity of the powders components and its ability to absorb water from the air have been known for centuries. Good powder if made damp by contact with liquid water will actually give up water to the atmosphere at pretty high relative humidity levels. Like on a back porch in PA. If not damp enough to seriously damage the grains *good powder* can be spread in the sun on a piece of canvas etc and dried.
Powder made from the same materials, milled the same and finished the same will have the same affinity for water. The "glaze" on Swiss powder is actually a thin film of potassium nitrate formed during the final drying process. It has not be treated with "black lead" (graphite) to make it shiny. Now FFFFG *may* turn to goop a little faster than the larger granulations will but all will become very difficult to ignite pretty quickly under the same conditions since the surface of the grains will get wet first as the contaminated potassium nitrate sucks up water from the air. So even a large grained powder will fail in high humidity.  IT WILL NOT return the water to the atmosphere unless subjected to very low humidity and probably heat. As stated this has been known for a VERY long time. Powder makers of the past were near fanatical about the purity of the Potassium Nitrate BECAUSE OF THIS PROBLEM. However, powder made in the US for quite some time was not made with pure potassium nitrate (this is no longer the case and it was the result of a nitrate seller shafting the powder maker from what I have been told) as a result older powder, depending on lot, might be pretty bad.
To state that FFFFG powder will suck up moisture when FFFG will not must take into account the characteristics of the powder itself. If you had a lot of FFFFG that was made with pure potassium nitrate  and a lot of FFFG with potassium nitrate that has significant levels of SODIUM NITRATE (even 1% is bad) the FFFG will be seriously if not fatally damaged by high humidity and the FFFFG will not.
If you go out in the woods and FFFG always works and FFFFG absorbs water like a sponge the FFFFG is $#@*. If it were not $#@* it would not absorb water FROM THE AIR to the point of being soggy black goop.
Its just a fact.

Dan

[R. Hare]

Dan,

I don't think we need agree or disagree on anything.

I will still use the same powder to prime as I'm using for the main charge, and others I am happy to leave to prime with what thay want.
I don't care which is a few milliseconds faster. I only shoot at big game moving slow or standing, and don't think the prime would make much difference to where the ball goes in that situation.
In my fowlers I Still use same powder in pan and barrel, and am happy with it. this doesn't make it right or wrong, so we needn't get upest with what others do.

Main reason for using the same powder is it keeps it simple, and was the way it was done in GB, where I come from, and seems to have been the practice over here, by what I can figure out in the early days.

At the beginning of this thread, we were asked our preferemces in priming powder.
Not asked which one was Right to use!.........The only person here who's a nutter is the one who's using priming powder he isn't happy with!

All the best.

Richard.

[Daryl]

If you want the fuse effect, prime with Pyrodex!  It ignites in my lock quite well, and fizzles just like most smokeless powders.

[Darkhorse]

Let me add something to my previous post; Long ago I did have problems with 4F turning to goop and at the time I attributed it to the humidity. But humidity wasn't my problem at all. It was gun oil.

Now my hunting process is this, without fail; I clean the barrel and TH liner with alcohol. First my wiping then by plugging the TH and pouring some down the barrel, then blowing it out with a patch.
I also remove the lock and clean ALL the oil out of it with Alchol, then spray it with silicone spray. Residual oil can be left on the tumbler or friction points if extreme care is taken to remove all traces from the bolster area. The entire frizzen, pan and flint recieves the same treatment.
Then the barrel in the area of the TH is thouroughly cleaned with Alcohol and allowed to dry. So when the lock is reinstalled there is no oil anywhere to leach into the prime regardless of how the gun is carried or which end/side is up or down.
I also use 1/2 a toothpick to plug the TH, a hammer stall, and a cows knee. Often the brush is wet early in the morning and dew is as bad as light rain.
Carrying 4F is no problem. I use a small brass spring primer that throws right at 3 grains everytime. This stays in my shirt pocket because occasionally I'll shake out the old prime and reprime. When I shake out the old I don't expect to see but a very few granuals stuck to the pan.
Since adopting this little process for hunting I have never, not once, had a problem with 4F as a prime. And that has been a number of years ago.

[George Sutton]

Like I said, we can agree to disagree.

Centershot

[omark]

I always hunt with 3F in the pan. It doesn't wick moisture like 4F or 7F does. The larger powders are "glazed" so there is some moisture resistance.
On thre line at the range or during woodswalks I always use 7F.

Centershot
7F?    never heard of it.

[George Sutton]

Roundball I was not responding to you. My intention is not to offend anyone.

I did not say that 3F powder will not wick moisture.  Small particle powders will wick moisture much faster than larger particle sized  powders. Larger particle powders have more air space  between the particles (albeit very small). Therefore they will wick moisture slower than fine powder.

"Powder made from the same materials, milled the same and finished the same will have the same affinity for water. The "glaze" on Swiss powder is actually a thin film of potassium nitrate formed during the final drying process. It has not be treated with "black lead" (graphite) to make it shiny. Now FFFFG *may* turn to goop a little faster than the larger granulations will but all will become very difficult to ignite pretty quickly under the same conditions since the surface of the grains will get wet first as the contaminated potassium nitrate sucks up water from the air. So even a large grained powder will fail in high humidity."

I agree, it just takes longer.

Centershot

[George Sutton]

Omark, 7f used to come out of Germany (possibly Switzerland). I used to buy it through Golden Age Arms.

Swiss is making some stuff called NULLB which may be the same stuff. I think the NULLB a little faster than the 7F.

Centershot

[R. Hare]

Daryl,

You mentioned priming with pyrodex.

Reminds me of a friend.  He tried it in his flint-gun.
..."Burns like a garden fire"  he said!!

[Dphariss]

Roundball I was not responding to you. My intention is not to offend anyone.

I did not say that 3F powder will not wick moisture.  Small particle powders will wick moisture much faster than larger particle sized  powders. Larger particle powders have more air space  between the particles (albeit very small). Therefore they will wick moisture slower than fine powder.

"Powder made from the same materials, milled the same and finished the same will have the same affinity for water. The "glaze" on Swiss powder is actually a thin film of potassium nitrate formed during the final drying process. It has not be treated with "black lead" (graphite) to make it shiny. Now FFFFG *may* turn to goop a little faster than the larger granulations will but all will become very difficult to ignite pretty quickly under the same conditions since the surface of the grains will get wet first as the contaminated potassium nitrate sucks up water from the air. So even a large grained powder will fail in high humidity."

I agree, it just takes longer.

Centershot

Nor was it my intention to insult/offend.
I was trying to point out that there is still older powder out there that is pretty moisture sensitive and that properly made powder does not suck up enough water from the air to turn to goop or fail to ignite.
Ships used to use powder that was put up in cloth bags for a considerable time before it was shot and it still seemed to work. I suspect that down 3 decks or so in a sailing ship was pretty high humidity. Then there is field artillery with bagged powder in Kentucky or the Carolinas in summer. Few powder horns are air tight. So powder in the horn should also fail if the powder is getting that much water from the air.
This is what I was trying to explain. If your priming powder constantly does this, no matter the grain size, there is a very real likelyhood something less obvious is going on.

Dan

[Daryl]

R-Hare- my note about Pyrodex was to it's 'fuse' effect only, not a suggestion for anyone to try it. Unless there is a trail of pyrodex into the main charge, the charge won't be ignited - normally. Stranger things have happened, though.  On the other hand, using it for prime will test your 'holding' capability. If this is tried, I hope the gun balances well and doesn't weigh much.  The 'pan-full' I fired off took about 3 seconds to burn in it's entirety.  That my flinter ignited it in the first place proved the lock to be a good one.