No crud-ring with 2f out of my .45...

[Skychief]

I tried several 2f loads with my .45 this weekend.   I was expecting more fouling as compared to 3f.   Much to my suprise, I noticed that the fouling was comparable (I wiped between shots) between the two.

The bigger suprise was the total absence of a crud ring near the breech when using the 2f loads.   The 3f loads developed a ring.

Thoughts?   Is this uncommon?   I will be trying more 2f loads through her as my groups showed some promise too.

Skychief.

[blackdog]

I found the same thing.  Quit using 3f all together.

[Roger Fisher]

What fer powder was it?  Swiss, Goex, Kik, Wano, Dragon, what?

My log gun refuses to shoot 3 F; but she behaves just fine with 2F Goex...

It takes a ton of shots to develop a ring; but does happen with the 3f Goex in my .45 L rifle.

[Daryl]

My meagre understanding of this may or may not be correct.  2F is slightly slower burning than 3F and that is the sole reason for less baked on fouling at the ball seat or in the breech as less of the powder's bulk is consumed at that location, prior to the ball moving.  With 3F - most burns there, almost before or actually before the ball even starts moving - that is why the finer granulations work better with some of the 'expansive' type bullets.  These bullet require a 'slam' start, to slug them up to fill, to prevent blowby.  The faster powders give this 'harder' or 'sharper'  start.  I do hope all this dispells the tales of unburnt powder on the ground out in front of the muzzle of a rifle or smoothbore.  That is "tale".  If you think it's true, spread the sheets, fire a bunch of shots, gather up all of the black stuff, use it for your charge with a patched ball and see if it goes off.  Don't try to flash it off first, have faith and load it first.  I'd have a CO2 dishcharger or ball puller handy, though.

We find no little or no difference in bore fouling with our loads, between 3f and 2F - except for heavy loads of 3F actually require tighter ball and patch combinations due to the higher pressures generated for a given velocity, by 3F.   Too, 2f usually gives more consistant results on a chronograph ie: close shot to shot velocities. Consistancy is usually has an effect on accuracy. The better the consistancy, the better the accuracy.  At close ranges, ie: out to 100yards, this isn't always the case, just most of the time - there are annomolies in the system.

My .45's 2f accuracy load is 10gr. greater in charge, than the 3f accuracy load.
 

[Dphariss]

The lack of fouling buildup in the breech is one reason I shoot Swiss.
Patch lube can effect this as well.

There are a lot of strange things with fouling that may be related to bore size.
In testing a 58 caliber barrel with I found that it fouled heavily, throughout the bore with over 100 grains of ff or fff Swiss. Yet my 50 caliber shoots 90 gr of fff with no problems.
I had questioned people having fouling problems with the 58, thinking it was some fluke, or patch lube etc. But my experience with this barrel makes me think its something to do with bore size, ball weight and charge weight?  I am told that once the burn temp reaches a certain point the fouling cakes and it could be that the 58 is prone to this? Swiss is somewhat hotter than Goex. Which I did not test. But I had no current production Goex and shooting older made in Moosic stuff would not be useful in my context. In 20-20 hindsight I should have shot some just as a control.
This rifle has this breeching


The only other 58 I ever had any experience with was one I made back in the 1960s and used 120 gr of Dupont (virtually the same as Moosic  GOI/Goex) FFF in it with no fouling problems it was a "plain"  flat breech


My 16 bore rifle will shoot to 170 gr of FF Swiss will not cause heavy fouling. But it makes a lot of recoil over 140 which gives as flat a trajectory as I need.
But it has a Nock breech.

This will change the way the powder burns or so we are told. Its supposed to make it more efficient based on  early 19th century testing I have read.

Switching a 45 (or any caliber) from FFF to FF would reduce the burn temp and also reduce the velocity with the same vol or weight of charge. The reduced burn temp will reduce efficiency but this may be offset by other considerations and accuracy might be one. Caked fouling might be another.
This is why its important to shoot FF and FFF in rifles to compare accuracy and fouling.
I shoot a lot of FFF in bores under
Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

...in bores under...?

[Skychief]

What fer powder was it?  Swiss, Goex, Kik, Wano, Dragon, what?

My log gun refuses to shoot 3 F; but she behaves just fine with 2F Goex...

It takes a ton of shots to develop a ring; but does happen with the 3f Goex in my .45 L rifle.

Roger, the 2f was Goex.  The 3f was Swiss, Scheutzen and Goex.

Thanks, Skychief.

[Skychief]

I should have mentioned that the rifle has a patent breech.

[Dphariss]

...in bores under...?

I had to take Dad to Billings today and I goofed. He is pretty well recovered from his whiplash and is flying back to Fairbanks the 10th.

In bores under 58. I would not use FFF in a 58 today though I would likely try FFF swiss just for kicks
I still don't understand why the 58 fouled this way. I this it was Herb you mentioned bad fouling in a 58. I was at a loss until I was shooting this rifle after rebarreling it. 110 gr HORRID fouling.
At 100 it was as clean as I would expect from Swiss?

Dan

[Dphariss]

I should have mentioned that the rifle has a patent breech.

You would need to reduce Swiss by about 10% over the others.

Dan

[Daryl]

I have a couple .58's - neither foul, but then, I haven't used more than 120gr. GOEX in either.  Can't recall having a fouler in a .58- ever.  Perhaps something was wrong with the interior of the tube?

[Dphariss]

Mad Monk thinks its burn temp of the Swiss.
He explained that if the temp reaches a certain point the fouling characteristics change and I naturally took his word for it.
As I stated I should have shot some other powder in it but Steve uses Swiss too so it never occurred to me.

Dan

[roundball]

Used Goex 3F in 28" & 32" .40/.45/.50/.54/.58/.62cals barrels, and more recently, Goex 2F in longer 38" barrels...never had a crud ring problem...always thought the occasional post I'd see about it was possibly the result of a certain type / amount of lube

[Flinter]

Yesterday, I was shooting five shots groups. The barrel was cleaned between each five shot group. The 3f Goex had a lot more build up than the 2f Goex, which is surprising to me.

Mike

[Daryl]

I am not surpreised, Mike - Taylor and I switched to 2F back in the 70's due to finding 3f fouled more. Of corue, the powders then were different, but it mattered not whether it was GOX, Dupont, Hartless and Scurvy(C&H), Meteor - one or two others - we found 3F fouled more than 2F.

Now, that might have been due to the pressure difference between the two granulations, however by the late 70's we were both using heavy denim, smoothly crowned muzzles and .005"/under balls with hunting-type loads - in everything. My wife even used 2f in her .36.

[roundball]

Yesterday, I was shooting five shots groups. The barrel was cleaned between each five shot group. The 3f Goex had a lot more build up than the 2f Goex, which is surprising to me.

Mike

Conversely, using Hoppe's PLUS BP lube, I normally shoot 50 shot range sessions with Goex 3F and never wipe between shots at all

[hanshi]

Same here, rb.

[Skychief]

Yesterday, I was shooting five shots groups. The barrel was cleaned between each five shot group. The 3f Goex had a lot more build up than the 2f Goex, which is surprising to me.

Mike

Hey Mike....What caliber and how well did the 2f group compared to the 3f loads?

Thanks, Skychief.

[Flinter]

Yesterday, I was shooting five shots groups. The barrel was cleaned between each five shot group. The 3f Goex had a lot more build up than the 2f Goex, which is surprising to me.

Mike

Conversely, using Hoppe's PLUS BP lube, I normally shoot 50 shot range sessions with Goex 3F and never wipe between shots at all

I was testing different loads and patch material roundball. I wanted to start the next load with a clean barrel. Using either Hoppe's or Daryl’s Neatsfoot oil mixed with WW fluid, I do not have to clean the barrel with 20 shots or ever how long I am shooting. 

Mike

[Flinter]

Yesterday, I was shooting five shots groups. The barrel was cleaned between each five shot group. The 3f Goex had a lot more build up than the 2f Goex, which is surprising to me.

Mike

Hey Mike....What caliber and how well did the 2f group compared to the 3f loads?

Thanks, Skychief.

Skychief, the best group of the .54 caliber this week was using 92 grains of 3f and a .020 teflon patch, but this may not be fair. I haven't tried this yet with 2f. The powder was Goex and Speer .530 balls that measured .530. Still, nothing to post a photo of though.

Mike

[Daryl]

Mike - remember the 10 to 20 rule. Depending on calibre, it takes 10 to 20gr. of 2f to match the velocity and usualy the accurcy of 3F.  With my .40 and .45, that difference is 10gr. In the larger calibres, my .58's, .62 and .69 I do not use 3F at all.  I don't have a .54 - yet.

[Flinter]

Daryl, I will definitely give the 2f a good chance. I will start with 92 grains and work up to 115 or so with five shot groups. I will use the same patch, and this is the .020 teflon. The only ball I can use with this is the Speer .530 balls.

I don't know. My 58 year old tired eyes I have are the biggest problem with my group size.  but... I'm having fun. 

Daryl, I cannot understand why you don't have the best caliber yet. 54 


Mike

[Daryl]

I already have small bores.    A .54 is just another small bore, albeit one I've never had. a par of .58 rifles, a .62 smooth and a .69 rifle run me from the mediums to large. I guess it depends on where you draw the lines.

[Flinter]

Daryl, I hope you realize I was just kidding. A 54 is about the largest you will run across in Arkansas. Most people use the 45 caliber. Now, they have gone to the 38 caliber sabot, and they cannot understand why the deer are running off.

Even worse, everyone uses the Pyrodex pellets. 

Mike

[Daryl]

Caught the joking & is why I called it a small bore - - - as to the deer wounding slug shooters - there is no accouting for actions amonst that crowd.