Ball casting

[Flinter]

I noticed there are a few young or low post count members on the ALR board, so I thought I would post a thread of how I cast bullets and balls.
I have been casting bullets and balls since the 70’s. I am open to suggestions, and maybe this will help some of the younger up coming people.

The first photo is how I preheat my mold while the lead is melting.



The second photo is how I flux the lead. I dip a dull knife in the lead and cut a ½ inch block of wax into the lead pot. Then I stir the wax into the lead until the fire goes out. If the lead is too cool, the wax will not catch on fire. 





The next photo is how I remove the impurities from the lead. I got a large spoon from my wife’s kitchen and drilled a few 1/8 inch holes at the rear of the spoon. The impurities stay in the spoon while the lead pours through the holes. After heating the mold with casting 25 balls, I soot the mold cavity with a candle. The mold is wiped down and I soot the mold after about three or four wax fluxes. 






I use a mold ladle while casting. The mold is held side ways. When I put the pour spout against the mold, the mold is turned up right.





After the mold starts casting good balls, I drop them in a bucket of water.



When I am through casting, I pour the water out of the bucket and put the balls on a towel for a couple hours to let them dry.
I always go through the finished balls and cull any wrinkled or non filled out balls.



http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/5435/ifinish.jpg

Mike

[northmn]

A few notes.  If you are mixing wheel weights in you lead ball like some do then dropping them in water will make them very hard.  WW can be heat treated in that matter to be harder than linotype.  Also keep the water a a ways away from the pot.  Many find it safer to have an old damp towel to drop the ball on as water hitting the molten lead can cause it to violently splatter.  I have dropped cast bullets into water but keep the pail below the casting pot.  I use one of the cheap Lee lead melters for my casting and have it up on a bench (the room is well ventilated as it is next to the outside door) It is just a comfort issue as I get a little stiff bending over a lot.

DP

[Daryl]

The these balls are sitting on a slanted 'tray' made of wood.  There are old towels for padding and the balls are dropped from the mould at the top edge and roll to the bottom on their own.  No splashes - slow cooling, maintaining their softness. No water to dump, etc.  I only quench bullet or balls when I cast from WW and want then hard. I then use a slip towel over a bucket of water. The ball falls through the slit & the towel stops all splashes.  

[caliber45]

Mike -- You forgot to remind them to stop in at stained-glass window shops to ask for scrap (pure) lead. It's always cheap -- and sometimes free! -- paulallen, tucson az

[plastikosmd]

Thank you guys, now some stupid questions

1) what is the point of fluxing the lead

2) when do you decide when to add a harder metal, linotype? etc. Hunting I assume?  I mostly target shoot, is there any point in hardening a RB?

3)what is the point of the soot?

thank you

[omark]

1 fluxing helps the lead flow better and fill out the mold better.

2 harder balls penetrate deeper. i dont generally use them, but i dont hunt moose, either.  most clubs dont want you shooting their steel targets with hard balls, bends them up too much.

3 soot helps the ball to release from the mold better.

hope that helps, mark

[Dphariss]

Thank you guys, now some stupid questions

1) what is the point of fluxing the lead

2) when do you decide when to add a harder metal, linotype? etc. Hunting I assume?  I mostly target shoot, is there any point in hardening a RB?

3)what is the point of the soot?

thank you

Unless shooting some pretty heavy game there is really no reason to use hard lead.
In some barrels it can load pretty hard. But if it shoots well and you have a supply of harder alloy there is no reason not to either.
Hardened lead was used for heavy game in Africa and India and I might use WW alloy if shooting a large bear. My 16 bore rifle shoots WW very well but requires a thinner patch than lead.

Dan

[Flinter]

Dpeck, I have about 200 pounds of pure lead I got from IPCo. when I worked there, so this is the lead I used. With my thumb nail I cannot tell any difference with the .535 I cast and dropped onto a towel as compared with the .530 balls I dropped in the water.
I have about 100 pounds of wheel weights I cast and quench in water, and they are hard.

Daryl. I like the slit in the towel idea.

Fluxing also helps separate the impurities and oxidation which collects on top of the lead. This is hard for me to understand, but the bees wax will get in-between the mold blocks and ball cavity.   

Do you guys mind if I vent a little steam off?
I ordered two Lyman moulds, and they both cast large. The .530 cast a .535 ball. I posted a couple of link photos. The first link is from the .535 and the next is from the .530. Quality control has gone down the drain.

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/4749/mic535.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7725/micyl.jpg

Mike

[Daryl]

.535 and .537 - NICE - but not what you ordered!  But not what was ordered. It happens, but not as bad as having a ball .535X.530" or .395" X .400" as one cavity of my Lyman DC mould casts. Lee is just as bad - my .562" RB DC casts .565"X.570" each cavity-they shoot OK int he Musketoon's .574" bore, but I don't like receiving what I didn't order - just like you.

The smaller .010" under balls are usually needed for square rifling, for hard balls.   I suspect rounded rifling would have difficulty filling with a hard ball that can be loaded. The harder the ball, the less resistant they are to drawing into a tight fit.

Hard balls become difficult with smaller bores that opperate at higher pressures. They are best reserved for heavy game like BIG bears.  Moose and elk realy don't need a hardened ball, unless you WANT to break bones - then have at it.  One leg and one shoulder blade (bull moose) with a .685" WW ball from a paper ctg. loaded with 165gr.2F. Range 100yards. My buddie's .75 with WW balls does even better. Neither of us used hardened balls.

[Roger Fisher]

The hard lead balls caused me some grief years ago when accuracy went awry after receiving an order of a few thousand.  Turns out the hard lead ball was tearing up the patches......  Going to a smaller ball might have cured it; but being on the stubborn side I went to the soft stuff.  Don't have a clue what happened to the rest of the hard ones.  Might be buried in the cellar somewhere.

[Harnic]

I'd always choose a larger bore size to achieve good penetration rather than alloy balls.  Go for an appropriate caliber for the largest game you plan to hunt, the smaller stuff will die fast with it too!  I've always considered 54 cal a good working minimum for deer & bigger.  For big bear or other dangerous critters, 62 cal would be a good bet.

[northmn]

Pure lead will not harden.  It takes a bit of arsenic in the lead to harden it.  Something shot makers knew in the 1600's using the Rupert screens (poisened lead)  I just mentioned it because if some one wants to try WW they will get  a very hard ball is dropped in water.  My cast hunting bullets for centerfire are water hardened and driven at about 2000 fps with no leading.  I only use about 1/3 to 1/2 WW and tehy still get quite hard.  Generally for round bal pure lead is best.

DP

[plastikosmd]

thx guys

[Flinter]

I sent an e-mail out to NEI, LBT, and Saeco inquiring about a .530 mold. Have you guys had any experience with any of these manufactures molds?

This is what I found on the Saeco (Redding) site:

“Bullet Sizes & Weights – How to Vary them
The bullet diameters and weights presented in this list are based on the use of Taracorp’s Lawrence Magnum bullet alloy (2% tin, 6% antimony, 1/4% arsenic, 91.75% lead).

Bullet diameters and weights will vary considerably depending on the lead casting alloy used. This variation can be as much as 1/2% on the diameter, and 8% on the weight among the most commonly used casting alloys. For example, a .358-158 grain bullet might show a diameter variation of .002", and a 13 grain difference in weight.

Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5% tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with such bullets running approximately 1/3% smaller in diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with Taracorp's metal. Linotype will produce bullets with the largest diameter and lightest weights. This alloy will produce bullets approximately 1/10% larger and 3% lighter than Taracorp. Other alloys of tin and antimony, with antimony content above 5%, will produce bullets with diameters and weights falling between those cast f rom wheel weights and linotype.

Alloys containing little or no antimony will cast considerably smaller than wheel weights and in some cases will produce bullets too small for adequate sizing.

Within the limitations given above, the weight and diameter of a cast bullet can be adjusted by varying the
alloy’s antimony content.

The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also vary according to casting temperature. Higher temperatures will result in greater shrinkage as the bullet cools, thereby producing a slightly smaller and lighter bullet than one cast of the same alloy at a lower temperature.”

I think I will cast some wheel weights tomorrow with the temperature set high. Of course the cast balls will go onto a towel and cooled slowly.

Mike

[Daryl]

If LBT will cut a RB mould, and you tell Verl that you want both cavities to cast .530" in pure lead, I'm sure it will. 

I have aquaintances who have NEI bullet moulds but I know no one with an NEI RB mould. I have one Saeco mould and nicely made, but again, bullet for modern rifle.

[Dphariss]

One of the reasons moulds are not casting round bullets/balls is that the iron warps the first  time its heated. Significant movement. So one mould from the same maker will cast a much rounder ball than the next one produced. Once the cavities are cut there in no way to fix it other than recutting to a larger diameter.
When Steve Brooks first started making moulds I was heat treating his roughed blocks in my electric ceramic kiln, heat to red then cool overnight. Since moving to Walker he advertises he double heat treats them before final machining and cutting the cavity.
I can't speak to aluminum or brass blocks.
Out of round is less important if casting bullets to be run through a sizer. Some bullets actually shoot better after sizing than before. Indicating the bullet might not be straight and the sizer die corrects some problem with the bullet.

Dan

[Dave Faletti]

I have an NEI mould for a roundball.  It casts a very nice ball thats dead on for diameter measured across it several ways.  It was made by the original owner.  I presume/hope the quality is still the same.

[Harnic]

I have several Lyman rb moulds & all very close to round, within .001", which is good enough for me.  My Lee rb mould for my Ruger Old Army revolver isn't as close, but that doesn't matter as it has several thou shaved during loading.

[Flinter]

Paul Jones called me today, but he said he did not make round ball molds. Daryl, Lyman sent me an e-mail, and they said, “Yes, please return it to the address on our website. Include a note stating the problem.” That sounds good.  LBT stated in an e-mail, “Mike, I'm sorry but I can't make round ball molds.” Dave, I am going to order an NEI .530 mold next week. Like I really have the money to do that. 
 
I cast some lead with antimony in it today, and the diameter was .534 with a few .533. These balls were cast hot and air cooled. One thing I did different was: I opened my mold and spur plate during pre-heating. The mold was hot enough that the balls were good after about 10 casts.
Thanks for the comments guys.

I worked with a plumber during the late 60’s, and he lost an eye from lead splatter.  I cannot emphasize this enough: wear safety glasses or prescription glasses for eye protection when casting.

Mike

[Paddlefoot]

Years ago there were a few hard core accuracy bugs in the group I shot with who claimed it was helpful to place their cast balls between two plates of glass or ground flat steel and roll them to make them more consistent and to get rid of the sprue nibs. Anyone still do that?

[Daryl]

Mike, if you cannot use a .022" patch with a .535" pure lead ball in your .54, lead with antimony ie: WW will do nothing for you, except make them even more difficult to load.  Balls with hardening alloys in them, usually cast .001" to .003" larger than pure. How much larger is dependent on the quantity and alloy of the 'foreign' elements.

I am not understanding the desire to use this teflon patching, but if it makes your gun more accurate, that's good.  I thought it was expensive? I also thougth most guys who used it, wiped after every shot.

Good point - always wear eye protection. Burnt skin is merely a burn - hurts but at least it will heal.  Your big shiny eyeball probably won't.

[Flinter]

Paddlefoot, I would like to get rid of the ball spur plate, but that just sounds like too much work.

Daryl, the pure lead cooled in water measured .535 cast in the Lyman mold. The WW alloy cast and air dried measured .534. I am going to send the Lyman mold back to the factory and get a replacement. I plan on ordering a NEI mold next week.

I am like you in that I do not like to clean between each shot. The .020 Teflon patches are soaked in WW fluid/ Neatsfoot oil over night and used with the Speer .530 balls. Although I use a 7/16 rod this is fairly easy to load without cleaning between shots. The Teflon cloth is the toughest patch material I have ever used. It is expensive though.

If I can get a mold that will cast a .530 ball, I will use an.018/.019 denim which shoots well. I have two yards of this material. I can easily load this with a 3/8 inch rod that is kept in my rifle. No extra rod to carry around. I am still experimenting though. 

Mike

[Daryl]

Mike- you should perhaps measure a few more balls.  I've cast WW alloys and pure lead in a number of my RB and bullet moulds and they all run larger (as they are supposed to) when casting with WW alloys.  

The .684" mould actually casts .002" larger with WW. I suspect the Italian outfit which made it, used Lyman's #2 alloy for sizing, as it casts .682" in pure lead, .684" in hard.

Whether they are dropped into water or not does not make a difference in size.

Mike, I think, sent me a piece of teflon patching with is chunk shoot retruns and it is merely what appears go be a normal ticking, with teflon stuck to one side.

I've never found anything more than normal cloth to be necessary, but if it is working for you, by all means, stick with it.

[Curtis]

Thanks for posting the mini tutorial, Flinter!  I have been slowly gathering everything I need to start casting.  I understand the general process but it is always good to see the steps in practice.

[Flinter]

Daryl, Paul Jones of Precision Bullet Molds confirmed what you said when I talked to him on the phone the other day.

I think I may have found out what happened to my pure lead. I was reading a post on the Cast Boolits web site. They were saying that shot for reloading shotgun shells were not pure lead. I have/had about 400 pounds of #9 and #6 shot in the Remington 25 pound bags. Since I no longer reload shot shells, I have been mixing this in my lead. I guess I need to start over on my lead supply.

I measured about 10 each of the WW lead and lead, and they measured basically the same of .535.

I guess I am just going to order a NEI .530 mold.

SquirrelHeart, glad I could help out. I have definitely learned a few things on this post.


A little humor.

Just to let you guys know how poor I really am. 




Mike