Author Topic: English Fowler  (Read 10263 times)

Offline Shreckmeister

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English Fowler
« on: March 03, 2011, 08:33:29 PM »
I know nothing of these rifles.  Can someone fill me in on them.
This one is in exceptional condition.  I'm interested in knowing how
old it is and what a value range on these might be.  Afraid to
overpay and be stuck with it.  



« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 11:02:40 PM by suzkat »
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

gregg

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Re: English Trade rifle
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2011, 08:46:31 PM »
Keith spoke of such. I am clueless. it is a nice looking rilfe.
I will be watching to see what I can learn also.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: English Trade rifle
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2011, 09:10:16 PM »
Not a rifle and probably not for " the indian trade". Just a low end fowling gun. Value $1500 to $2000 unless there's something bad wrong with it.
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2011, 11:02:23 PM »
I knew it wasn't a rifle.  Don't know why I wrote that.  Changing
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2011, 11:19:22 PM »
OK, probably 1790 ish give or take 5 years. The trigger guard would tend to suggest pre 1765 but quite often these old style husk finial guards were put on low end guns pretty late. I'm basing the date on the lock. A picture of the top of the buttplate would be helpfull to nail down a date.
Any proofs on the barrel?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 11:20:10 PM by Mike Brooks »
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2011, 12:08:08 AM »
Here is the buttplate photo.  I recall 1 english marking on the barrel
but can't remember the detail.  I'll check it.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 12:11:09 AM by suzkat »
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

beast44k

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2011, 12:29:51 AM »
I did a little more research, and here's something I found.
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/10728

It should date earlier than I originally thought, maybe late 1700's - early 1800's. Then again, I have a Richard Wilson fowler that has a lot of the same characteristics, and it's from the mid-1700's.
See if there's initials stamped in the barrel, that'll help some.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2011, 02:30:47 AM »
I did a little more research, and here's something I found.
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/10728

It should date earlier than I originally thought, maybe late 1700's - early 1800's. Then again, I have a Richard Wilson fowler that has a lot of the same characteristics, and it's from the mid-1700's.
See if there's initials stamped in the barrel, that'll help some.


One thing for sure, as Mike suggested, that isn't any mid 18th century lock.  I'm with you on the late 18th century assesment.

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2011, 04:35:27 AM »
So is the concensus that the asking price of $2500 is 25% above the market
on this one.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2011, 02:01:42 PM »
So is the concensus that the asking price of $2500 is 25% above the market
on this one.
I probably wouldn't pay that much for it. Others might.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2011, 03:42:09 PM »
A low end, English-made export grade fowler. It cannot predate 1790 - and probably 1792 when the Privy Council started to grant export licenses for the firearms going to America. The earlier features are a bit of a red herring... they reflect the application of features common to high-end London quality guns of an earlier period to low-end mass produced guns 25 or 30 years later.

As to value... I wouldn't pay any more than $1500. These guns are not rare. They were literally imported by the thousand. Also, it is extremely unlikely it was made for the Indian trade although quantities of low end fowlers were purchased for this purpose when supplies of purpose-built "Indian" guns were unavailable.

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2011, 04:58:19 PM »
JV,  Thanks for weighing in with your considerable knowledge. 
I had a feeling it was overpriced and I appreciate your saving me from
making a mistake. 
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2011, 05:30:05 PM »
A low end, English-made export grade fowler. It cannot predate 1790 - and probably 1792 when the Privy Council started to grant export licenses for the firearms going to America. The earlier features are a bit of a red herring... they reflect the application of features common to high-end London quality guns of an earlier period to low-end mass produced guns 25 or 30 years later.

As to value... I wouldn't pay any more than $1500. These guns are not rare. They were literally imported by the thousand. Also, it is extremely unlikely it was made for the Indian trade although quantities of low end fowlers were purchased for this purpose when supplies of purpose-built "Indian" guns were unavailable.

An additional thought and warning...
The Ketland's did export a gun they referred to as an "Indian fusil"... of the literally tens of thousands of guns we have actual export figures for, there were only a handful of these. I forget the exact number but it was much less than 50 (though we may discover more as the research continues) ... the exact numbers will be in our Ketland book but the figures are not mine so I don't feel free in disclosing them until the book comes out. Suffice it to say that virtually NO Ketland "indian trade" guns of any kind were exported to America. Some may have gone to Canada and they did provide some of the pistols intended for Britain-friendly Indians during the War of 1812 (few of which were actually distributed). The frequently heard attribution of "Indian Trade" to any Ketland gun is pure dealer hype.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 05:34:25 PM by JV Puleo »

beast44k

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2011, 06:34:45 PM »
Oh yeah, $2500 is way too much.

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2011, 08:46:51 PM »
I'm assuming these proof marks will confirm your thoughts on the rifle being 1790 or 1792 mass production.  The owner is insistent that the gun is circa 1750s.  I don't know what leads him to believe that, but thought
I would follow up with the photos.  Barrel also marked in block "London"

« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 08:47:27 PM by suzkat »
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2011, 09:46:54 PM »
Post 1813 Birmingham proofs.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2011, 10:57:47 PM »
That says it all.  Why Birmingham proofs when barrel is marked London?
Did they ship them out for proofing?
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Daryl

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2011, 12:35:52 AM »
Noted in "Firearms of the American West" that English guns sold well in the America's if they said 'London" on the top of the barrel or rib.  This might have been the reason for London on the barrel. Too- many parts were made abroad and assembled in London or visa/vis?

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2011, 02:11:42 PM »
Actually, they are Ordnance Private Proofs (no BPC and V in the scepters), done at the Ordnance proof house for the trade. the barrels were shipped to London for proof via the fantastic English inland canal system. This was so efficient that they were probably back in B'ham to be stocked in a fortnight. The practice probably stopped around 1805 but that is only a guess. The records are fragmentary but they stop in the 1804/05 period so we have no way of knowing if private proofs continued after that time. It definitely stopped by 1813 when the B'ham proof house opened. As for the date... the owner is all wet though that is understandable because the commonly published dates for the Ketlands place them in the export trade much to early. The founder of the company was only born in 1737... he was a teenager in the 1750s.

Shortly before the B'ham proof house opened, in 1813, there was a piece of legislation introduced in Parliament, sponsored by the London gun trade. It required that all barrel markings denote where the barrel was actually made - which would have ended the custom of putting "London" on B'ham made barrels. The legislation went absolutely nowhere when the B'ham makers pointed out that virtually all of the London makers were buying their barrels semi-finished from B'ham, finishing them and having them proved at the London proof house... so even the "real" London barrels were B'ham products.

Today we are surrounded by meaningless advertising hype, so much so that most of us barely notice it... it was exactly the same in the 18th and early 19th centuries. In  fact, it was probably worse since no one had even thought of "truth in advertising".

As a finished gun, I very much doubt that this gun, and tens of thousands like it, ever saw London unless it was from the hold of a canal boat taking them down to the Thames for shipment to America. Just as many "London" guns were probably shipped from Bristol and Liverpool and never got closer than 150 miles to London. In fact, last Sunday I was in London and located the site of the Ketland warehouse. It is in easy walking distance of the Thames embankment in a neighborhood once thick with the offices and warehouses of commercial export firms.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 02:31:46 PM by JV Puleo »

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2011, 02:59:34 PM »
Joe,  Great historic reference.  Thank you for the education.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Daryl

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Re: English Fowler
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2011, 08:07:41 PM »
yeah - JV - good stuff.