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Author Topic: Kasenit ?  (Read 13815 times)

Offline Paddlefoot

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Kasenit ?
« on: March 06, 2011, 03:32:04 AM »
Will Kasenit give the color cased finish or is it just hard and some other method needed to get the coloring?
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2011, 03:47:21 AM »
Kasenit usually, not always, leaves the metal gray.
To get colors, the old style colors, you need to pack harden in a mix of actual bone charcoal and wood charcoal. Guy named Gaddy had two great articles, 1996 & '97 in The Double Gun Journal

More reference to this is in:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/39498022/Heat-Treating-for-the-Muzzle-loader-From-www-jgokey-com
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2011, 04:18:55 AM »
Just plain charcoal pack will give you colors. As I understand it, cyanide will give more brilliant color, so you can add peach pits to the mix. They have a lot of cyanide in them.

a charcoal casehardened lock:
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2011, 06:08:16 AM »
Here is a lock I case color hardened.  I used Brownells wood and bone charcol to pack my parts in.  Even with pack hardening, you need to make sure that the air does not hit your parts before they hit the quench or they will come out grey.  Kasenit only adds a surface hardening to your mild steel parts.
DMR
   
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2011, 06:29:23 AM »
Dave, I get about 5"-8" of air time before my parts hit the quench. I still get color. Just sayin'.

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Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2011, 07:05:28 AM »
Thanks guys. That's how I remembered it but I wanted to be sure. I've never tried to color case anything but I'm building a couple rifles to stretch myself on so I want to go all out on them.
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2011, 08:11:14 AM »
Quote from: Acer on March 06, 2011, 06:29:23 AM
Dave, I get about 5"-8" of air time before my parts hit the quench. I still get color. Just sayin'.
Tom, 
My train of thought is that the charcol is giving off a gas blanket that is protecting the parts from coming in contact with the atmosphere before it hits the water.
DMR 
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Offline 44-henry

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2011, 08:24:02 AM »
I have done a lot of color case hardening over the last few years and I have found that the closer you get the parts to the quench before release the better your odds are of getting good colors. Nothing is absolute but I do believe it does make a difference.
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Offline B Shipman

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2011, 08:24:23 AM »
Kasinite is great for hardening small parts like screw heads where color doesn't matter. I always do this to lock and tang screws so they don't get buggered. Dull gery and patchy. Polish it off or leave it .
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2011, 08:39:36 AM »
I have never had any problem getting really nice colors (not English double grade colors, mind you, but nice) with Kasenit.   ;)
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2011, 09:39:29 AM »
Quote from: Paddlefoot on March 06, 2011, 03:32:04 AM
Will Kasenit give the color cased finish or is it just hard and some other method needed to get the coloring?

The colors come from the quench. If you mix saltpeter in the quench water you will get color.
BUT there are many factors. Temp, how thick the layer of Kasenit is etc etc.
If the quench water is being stirred or aerated.
If you seriously want color have it done by a pro. It will save a lot of experimentation and disappointment.
Very rarely will there be any color without saltpeter in the water.

Dan
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Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2011, 10:35:58 AM »
Dan can you give me some info on where to get saltpeter and what concentration would be needed in the quench?
I'm interested in learning the skills to do these processes myself not just in getting color on a part for the looks. Many thanks to all of you who have responded.
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Offline Roger B

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2011, 04:58:32 PM »
My question exactly!  What is the ratio of potassium nitrate to water?  How much aeration?  I'm doing Hawken parts, so super colors are not necessary, but some would be nice.
Roger B.
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Offline Glenn

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2011, 05:35:10 PM »
Quote from: Acer on March 06, 2011, 04:18:55 AM
Just plain charcoal pack will give you colors. As I understand it, cyanide will give more brilliant color, so you can add peach pits to the mix. They have a lot of cyanide in them.

a charcoal casehardened lock:


Peach pits ... hhhmmmmm ... very interesting point.  I would've never thought of that one on my own, that's for sure !!!

So far we've got charcoal, bone, peach pits, (possibly leather scraps ... ???) and kasenit for the "pack", and saltpeter in the water for quench.  Sounds great.  I'll log this thread and keep all this in mind for the upcoming build.  THANKS !!!   ;D
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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2011, 06:24:46 PM »
I remember reading that aerating the quench bucket/tub with both small bubbles and large will also aid in the mottleing effect. An air compressor with a couple of lines should do it.

Regards,
Albert
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2011, 07:00:47 PM »
Its not likely from this distance that I can tell you how to get color with Kasenit.
Ratio of saltpeter? Its what I used to dump in. I used to use saltpeter in the water for a quench for bluing screw heads. In retrospect I ma not sure it does a !@*%&@ thing but it stopped the color change and that was the important part.
I would get color by accident in most cases using the mix to quench parts but could get color on Colt hammers and screw heads. But if you want to do things like lock plates warpage is always a possibility.
In any case its not going to look like color hardening done with bone. Its a much smaller pattern.
If you want good color you need to either take the time to work it out or have someone who knows how do it.
Keith Kilby at Wyoming Armory does such nice work I don't even think about it. I just send or take the parts to him.

Dan
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Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2011, 08:20:25 PM »
Internet search for saltpeter give various stump remover products as a source for potassium nitrate. Spectracide being the recommended brand.
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2011, 08:32:12 PM »
I don't have a forge, so everything is done with a torch.  I take my part (a lockplate, for example) heat it, coat it HEAVILY with Kasenit, and keep it at heat for several minutes, constantly adding Kasenit.  When satisfied, I just take it and quench it edgewise in a pot of warm, not-too-clean water.  Kasenit pops off with a very satisfying "POP" sound, and I get a hard surface with colors.

I usually don't worry too much about them, since I'm normally going to polish them right off...

But sometimes I keep them.


« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 08:33:33 PM by Stophel »
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Offline Metalshaper

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2011, 09:19:12 PM »
Do a search, of the ALR, for Color casehardening .. and try and find the ones posted by Jerry Huddleston ( probably botched the last name?? apologies! ) Jerry did a whole write up of how he color case hardens..  or

http://www.marlin-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3732

follow this thread on a different forum.. and see how this fellow goes about color casing his projects..

Hope it helps!

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
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Offline Long John

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2011, 10:04:36 PM »
Remember that black powder is about 50% saltpeter and only the saltpeter is soluble in water.  The carbon and sulfur are both insoluble in water and will end up in the bottom of the bucket.  You could also mix black powder with water and decant off the liquid to get a saltpeter solution.

Best Regrads,

JMC
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Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2011, 10:19:23 PM »
Ah John, always the chemist. Thanks all for the good info.
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Offline davec2

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2011, 12:02:44 AM »
I make a lot of my own black powder.  An excellent grade of potassium nitrate is available as fertilizer in a lot of places (farm supplies, garden centers, etc.).  Here is an excellent brand (makes very good powder which, by the way, is about 75% Potassium Nitrate:

Green House Grade KNO3

http://www.haifachem.com/lang1/templateltr/default.aspx?PageId=37&parentId=40&catId=12&maincat=1
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Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2011, 04:18:12 AM »
I use a product called "Quick hard"  and it available from welding supply houses.  It is seems to be mix of bone meals and other ingredients that are none toxic.  I use a oxy/acc. torch to heat , bake then Quench in water with a small layer of oil on top - I not only get case hardening but colors as well!  The colors are not brilliant but subdude which is what I prefer anyway.    Hugh Toenjes
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2011, 04:39:02 AM »
Quote from: davec2 on March 07, 2011, 12:02:44 AM
I make a lot of my own black powder.  An excellent grade of potassium nitrate is available as fertilizer in a lot of places (farm supplies, garden centers, etc.).  Here is an excellent brand (makes very good powder which, by the way, is about 75% Potassium Nitrate:

Green House Grade KNO3

http://www.haifachem.com/lang1/templateltr/default.aspx?PageId=37&parentId=40&catId=12&maincat=1

Unless its better than 99.99 pure it will cause problems with the powder.
The ceramic grade still likely carries sodium nitrate.
Any sodium nitrate in the powder makes it hygroscopic.

Dan
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Kasenit ?
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2011, 04:51:03 AM »
Durable case colors come from the calcium phosphate in bone.

They are not the same as temper colors.

the process used by Colt & others to get color, also what i believe Doug Turnbull does these days, is described in a two part article by Oscar Gaddy, Winder '96, Spring '97, The Double Gun Journal  I can email pdfs if anyone wants them.
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