Author Topic: Flintlock Questions (Read 14504 times)

wetzel · « **on:** March 07, 2011, 07:01:19 AM »

I just finished building me a flint long rifle. I have a Siler lock on the gun and was wondering if heating the frizzen with a torch to hot brown it could have tempered the steel some? I have shot the gun maybe thirty times and have had to nap the flint every few shots. This is my first flintlock and am struggling. It doesn't seems right to need to adjust and fix it so much. Any ideas and help would be greatly appreciated.

RwBeV · « **Reply #1 on:** March 07, 2011, 07:14:27 AM »

Did you have a lock kit? Or was it complet?

smallpatch · « **Reply #2 on:** March 07, 2011, 07:29:35 AM »

First of all, YES, you could have tempered the frizzen by heating it to brown it. You will have to harden it and temper it again.

You should contact the manufacturer to find the proper method of heat treating.

Next time, use cold brown.

doug · « **Reply #3 on:** March 07, 2011, 08:01:05 AM »

If you are getting lots of sparks, then the frizzen is hard enough. If it is too soft, you will not get any sparks. It sounds to me as if the flint is hitting the frizzen too high up and too square to the frizzen surface. I am guessing that you are shattering the sharp edge. Does the number of strikes between knapping, increase as the flint gets shorter?

cheers Doug

northmn · « **Reply #4 on:** March 07, 2011, 07:47:03 PM »

I almost messed up a large Siler lock by starting to tune it as the frizzen did not like to kick open like I thought it should. Application of a little gun oil did amazing things to its performance. Gun grease also works.

DP

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #5 on:** March 07, 2011, 07:59:23 PM »

1. quality of flints??
2. length of flint?
3 Bevel up or bevel down? (some locks prefer one or the other)
4. As said above, if you are getting spaks it is not the frizzen hardness -- Be sure the frizzen rotates smoothly/freely on its pivot and theat the tit that rides on the frizzen spring is lubricated and not dragging on the spring
5. Look for lock geometry issues
6 If it is a Chambers lock, call Jim Chambrs and see what he suggests... no one can get you going faster....

Just think how much you will know about flintlocks and how confident you will be.... (don't ask me how I know

)

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #6 on:** March 07, 2011, 08:11:05 PM »

Wetzel: I have assembled and tuned MANY Siler locks - heating for browning should not have annealed the frizzen to the point where it will not spark. Sounds like you might have another problem of some sort. If you cannot find a solution I would be happy to "tune" your lock for you. e-mail: hjt65@hotmail.com or phone: 605-673-4072, Hugh Toenjes

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #7 on:** March 07, 2011, 08:17:27 PM »

Quote from: Blacksmoke on March 07, 2011, 08:11:05 PM

Wetzel: I have assembled and tuned MANY Siler locks - heating for browning should not have annealed the frizzen to the point where it will not spark. Sounds like you might have another problem of some sort. If you cannot find a solution I would be happy to "tune" your lock for you. e-mail: hjt65@hotmail.com or phone: 605-673-4072, Hugh Toenjes

And I can tell you..Hugh Toenjes knows how to make a lock not ony work....but it will be able to speak S. Dakota as well... very fine work!

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #8 on:** March 07, 2011, 08:54:02 PM »

If the frizzen is too soft,
a) flint will bite right into the steel, coming to a dead stop on the frizzen, very little or no spark.
or
b) breaking off huge chunks of flint as the hammer falls and the frizz flips open, and very little to no spark.

Either above scenario, the frizzen will show deep cuts by the flint, instead of a pretty smooth scraped surface.

wetzel · « **Reply #9 on:** March 07, 2011, 09:09:55 PM »

Okay, thanks for some great information. The lock was not from a kit, so the frizzen was pre-hardened. One of the main reasons I built this rifle was to make myself learn the in's and out's of the flintlock. Some great shooters that I really look up to encouraged me to get a flintlock and learn how to shoot it with the assurance that learning to shoot a flintlock would drastically improve my shooting of anything else. After my few trips out I think I sort of understand what they mean, I'm not sure I hit even the barn behind the box with the target attached to it:) The lock does spark, so maybe it is where my flint hits the frizzen, or lubrication needed. Where on the the frizzen should the flint be first making contact, about 2/3 of the way up? I have been shooting with the bevel up so far, but will try it with the bevel down and see if there are any improvements. How many shots are normal before having to knap a flint? The sparks seemed to get worse as the shooting continued, or in other words, the flint seemed to need more adjustments the more shots in. Hugh, I sure appreciate the offer and may need to take you up on it, though this is part of my self imposed flintlock journey and really want to learn so I have the knowledge in my toolbox for future needs.

wetzel · « **Reply #10 on:** March 07, 2011, 09:12:45 PM »

Acer, I just read your post after writing the last post. The lock does spark, though there are some gouges on the frizzen, seems like if it was hard enough it wouldn't leave gouges. There are times when the flint sticks most of the way down the frizzen. Would it hurt to re-harden the frizzen just in case?

KLMoors · « **Reply #11 on:** March 07, 2011, 10:10:00 PM »

When you say the flint "sticks" Do you mean it actually digs into the frizzen and stops?

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #12 on:** March 07, 2011, 10:24:31 PM »

Put a little tell-tale of grease on the tail of the frizzen where it stops on the frizzen spring when the frizzen flops open.

If your frizzen flips open and bounces back, it looks to the naked eye that the frizzen just stopped. A little spot of grease transferred to the spring will tell you that the frizzen did indeed open all the way, but it bounced back shut against the flint.

If you ARE getting spark AND your hammer just stopped halfway down the frizzen, then there is something wrong with the mainspring being too weak, or frizzen not opening freely enough.

If you are NOT getting spark AND your hammer just stopped halfway down the frizzen, then your frizzen may be too soft.

Your flint NEEDS TO BE SHARP TO MAKE SPARKS. Making sparks is a shearing action, the sharp flint is peeling little shavings of steel off the frizzen. The sparks are burning bits of steel. A dull flint will not shave steel, thus no spark.

Long John · « **Reply #13 on:** March 07, 2011, 10:49:44 PM »

I have used hot brown on all teh locks I have made and never drew the temper on a frizzen.

That being said, it is possible to overheat during hot browning. Hot brown only needs abourt 200F.

Do you have a file? If so take your file and see if you can cut a line across teh face of the frizzen. If the file just skids across the frizzen and doesn't cut a groove then it is hard enough and you have other issues.

Those other issues likethose listed above. But, in my exerience it is most likely roughness on the toe of the frizzen that bears on the frizzen spring. The toe has to be filed and polished so that the bearing surface that touches the ffrizzen spring is even across the whole width of the frizzen toe and as smooth as glass. Carefully file it parallel with the frizzen spring surface, rounded over, and then polish it down to 1200 grit crocus cloth. Do the same with the top of the frizzen spring - polish down to smooth as glass with crocus cloth. Then put a little dab of bear grease on the frizzen spring before reassembly.

Good luck. You will get that gun shooting! And when you do you will be much wiser for the journey.

JMC

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #14 on:** March 07, 2011, 11:04:20 PM »

Wetzel: The more you describe your lock it is beginning to sound like a mainspring problem - not strong enough. When you pull the cock back to full cock position does the tension get stronger or stay the same or get weaker? When the cock is fully forward it should have max. tension on it from the main spring. You can test this with a spring loaded fish scale - see how many lbs. it takes to start the cock off of the "cock forward" position. Then pull the cock to "full cock" and see how many lbs. it takes to hold the cock back just so the full cock notch is disengaged. The forward lbs. should be at least twice of that at fullcock position. The main spring tension can be adjusted quite easily without reforging it. However you will need to be able silver solder with high temp. Let me know what your lbs. are before we go any further. Hugh Toenjes

Dave Faletti · « **Reply #15 on:** March 07, 2011, 11:37:42 PM »

Did you by chance tighten the frizzen pivot screw? The head only needs to go til its flush with the lock surface. If it gets tightened you can pull in the piece on the far side of the frizzen and have it bind up. You might try removing the mainspring and frizzen spring and check that everything is moving smoothly. As mentioned prior make sure all bearing surfaces are smooth and have grease/oil on them.

rich pierce · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2011, 11:37:55 PM »

I suggest spending some time with an experienced flintlock shooter on the range with this gun. Any one of us here could see something with the gun in hand that we'd never guess here, or suggest something here that is not the problem at all. You can't hurt anything by lubricating and light polishing these bearing surfaces: tumbler nose where the mainspring rides, the mainspring where it rides on the nose, the teat on the frizzen toe and the top of the frizzen spring. Beyond that I would not tinker.

If you cut a piece of hardwood into the shape of a flint, 1/4-5/16" thick, 3/4" wide, 7/8" long, with a beveled edge, you'll be able to see how this flips the frizzen over w/o worrying about sparks or digging in. This will show you where you need to mount the flint (fore-and aft, bevel up and bevel down) for best mechanics. Then mount a real flint the same way and see how the lock works and the sparks fall.

In my experience the biggest reason why flints die an early death is that they are a little loose in the jaws. I notice folks like to count the number of shots they get with a flint and can give the impression you ought to get 150 shots from every flint with every flintlock. It might happen with some locks and some flints. Most locks can be improved some, but the basic geometry of the factory Siler is well worked out and outside of some polishing and lubing, you should be good to go.

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #17 on:** March 08, 2011, 12:06:18 AM »

The first Chambers English Roundfacedd lock I bought had a similar problem....sparked but sometimes stuck without opening the frizzen. I called Jim Chambers and he asked me if the toe of the frizzen was making a mark on the frizzen spring....it was. So I stoned the mark out of the spring, stoned the knob on the frizzen smooth and then put a drop of Acra-lube on the spring and knob...Walla!!!! Worked beautifully!! In the months the lock was sitting around waiting for me to build the gun and then in the building process the lube had been wiped off...they do need good lube. That lock has now worked perfectly for six years///////

wetzel · « **Reply #18 on:** March 10, 2011, 12:51:34 AM »

Okay so here is another newbie question. Should there be any gouges left in the frizzen? Overall it is pretty smooth on the face, though there are a couple small gouges. I tried putting the bevel down, it was worse. I took the frizzen off, polished the part that comes in contact with the spring. There is a small mark on the spring, what do you use to polish the spring and frizzen piece? I lubed it with break free since that's all I currently have, it seems to be a little smoother now. Is accra-lube what I should be using on my lock parts then? I think I will try re-hardening the frizzen just in case. In answer to someone's question about sticking flint, I'm not exactly what happened, but the flint was 90% down the frizzen and stalled there. This didn't happen every time, just a few times, although now that I think about it those small gouges are toward the bottom where it stopped. I know this is probably driving many you crazy not being able to handle the lock for yourself to diagnose and fix the problem, but I appreciate greatly your time and experience!!!

KLMoors · « **Reply #19 on:** March 10, 2011, 01:08:32 AM »

Hmmm, I've only got one thought to add and that is- if it is a Jim Chambers lock I think the frizzen is hardened all the way through so, if it is, I'd send it back to Jim and let them check it out. They are great folks to deal with and I don't think it is likely that you'd be able to do as good a job at hardening the frizzen as them.

I don't know if this was asked yet but, when the lock is a 1/2 cock, how much space is between the flint and the frizzen? My Chambers' silers seem to work best with about 1/8 inch or so of gap at 1/2 cock.

Oh, and yup, there should be some real light gouges in the face of the frizzen. Scratches might be a better name for them. Remember, it is little slivers of steel that are making the sparks so some steel gets removed.

Tim Crosby · « **Reply #20 on:** March 10, 2011, 01:34:50 AM »

Wetzel,
Where are you?

Tim C.

Kelhammer · « **Reply #21 on:** March 10, 2011, 02:02:22 AM »

What size of flints are you using? I am curious about if your flint is long enuff to do the job. Does the top of the clamp screw holding the flint, touch the frizzen as the cock is comming down? It should not. I had this happen my first time alone with my flintlock. The gun was going off fine, but I noticed the frizzen not opening all the way up. Then I could not get her to go off at all. That clamp screw was making contact with my frizzen, as the flint was to short. Something about your story reminded me of that day. A new flint fixed her all up. I had not seen if you had tried a new flint, but I was in a hurry and may have not seen it.

Andrew

wetzel · « **Reply #22 on:** March 10, 2011, 02:05:47 AM »

Tim, I live in Evanston Wyoming. I will check tonight when I get home on the distance to the frizzen at 1/2 cock. I talked to the Jim Chambers people and they told me that they had a person hardening their frizzens that wasn't doing them quite right and if it was eating up flints to re-harden it. I don't know if my lock falls in with that batch or not, but it sparks, and there are only small scratches (ya, scratches does sound better than gouges) although there are a couple at the bottom that seem a little deeper than the rest. I'm pretty sure they are the 3/4" flints, I will check to see if the flint jaw screw is coming in contact with frizzen tonight and if so try another flint.

Dphariss · « **Reply #23 on:** March 10, 2011, 03:03:18 AM »

Quote from: Blacksmoke on March 07, 2011, 11:04:20 PM

Wetzel: The more you describe your lock it is beginning to sound like a mainspring problem - not strong enough. When you pull the cock back to full cock position does the tension get stronger or stay the same or get weaker? When the cock is fully forward it should have max. tension on it from the main spring. You can test this with a spring loaded fish scale - see how many lbs. it takes to start the cock off of the "cock forward" position. Then pull the cock to "full cock" and see how many lbs. it takes to hold the cock back just so the full cock notch is disengaged. The forward lbs. should be at least twice of that at fullcock position. The main spring tension can be adjusted quite easily without reforging it. However you will need to be able silver solder with high temp. Let me know what your lbs. are before we go any further. Hugh Toenjes

You beat me to it. Weak mainsprings are a prime cause of sparking problems.
Hardening the lockplate is a good idea too.

Dan
Dan

gregg · « **Reply #24 on:** March 10, 2011, 03:41:16 AM »

Quote from: Dphariss on March 10, 2011, 03:03:18 AM

Quote from: Blacksmoke on March 07, 2011, 11:04:20 PM

You beat me to it. Weak mainsprings are a prime cause of sparking problems.
Hardening the lockplate is a good idea too.

Dan
Dan

Harden plate to cut down flex of the plate or for slicker working surface or both???

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Author Topic: Flintlock Questions (Read 14504 times)

wetzel

RwBeV

doug

northmn

wetzel

wetzel

Dave Faletti

wetzel

Kelhammer

wetzel

gregg